Taekwondo Forms Pacing and Rhythm

[paitingman]

I learned Taeguk forms in a repeating four-count rhythm, as I think a lot of tkd schools do.
Does this come from military influence? or sport training influence? or elsewhere?

Most Shotokan forms are more dynamic rhythmically in comparison, but there is a sometimes subtle steadiness.
Forms of Kung Fu appear to be more flowing and even more dynamic.

Do you ever try more free-flowing, personal, or just alternative pacing and rhythm in your training?
Is there benefit in performing the forms in a more quickly paced, continuous manner?

 

[jobo]

I learned Taeguk forms in a repeating four-count rhythm, as I think a lot of tkd schools do.
Does this come from military influence? or sport training influence? or elsewhere?

Most Shotokan forms are more dynamic rhythmically in comparison, but there is a sometimes subtle steadiness.
Forms of Kung Fu appear to be more flowing and even more dynamic.

Do you ever try more free-flowing, personal, or just alternative pacing and rhythm in your training?
Is there benefit in performing the forms in a more quickly paced, continuous manner?

there's benefit at going at the pace you wish to do them in the real world,(fast?) and there is a benefit to doing them very slowly and holding maximum muscle contraction and no benefit at all in doing them in walz time, unless you are learning to dance

 

[Gerry Seymour]

there's benefit at going at the pace you wish to do them in the real world,(fast?) and there is a benefit to doing them very slowly and holding maximum muscle contraction and no benefit at all in doing them in walz time, unless you are learning to dance

I've used forced rhythm to help students fix learned pauses in their movement. Sometimes, a waltz rhythm is just right for breaking a bad habit. Especially if the habit is a lack of waltzing.

 

[serietah]

We don't really teach rhythm of forms until a student is black belt, so I am actually just learning this. It's probably my favorite thing I've ever learned. I did learn a rhythm for Taeguek 8 in my last few months as a color belt, but it was like music, not 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4. I'm currently learning Koryo and it absolutely sounds like music to me because of the rhythm. Slow, fast, fast, fast, fast, pause, snap....with the awesome uniform sounds

 

[skribs]

We generally count for them, especially in the lower belts or if we have a mixed class and want to force everyone to slow down so we can see their form. When they're allowed to do it at their pace, we generally tell them to slow down enough so we can see each technique.

As the forms get more advanced, there is more to the rhythm than a constant. Some moves seemingly exist by themselves, others exist within a combination. Some of our forms are slower through the whole form, while others are faster. The important thing is not so much the timing as it is the display of technique, and the teamwork (i.e. keeping in time with the rest of the students).

When we do forms to music for the purpose of demonstration, the pace changes to keep time with the music.

 

[serietah]

When we do forms as color belts we count “1 sir 2 sir” etc to the end, so Taegeuk 1 ends “17 sir” then kihap. Kids who count too fast will definitely be told to slow down lol.

When it’s time to prep for black belt test, we stop counting out loud at all.

 

[Gnarlie]

When we do forms as color belts we count “1 sir 2 sir” etc to the end, so Taegeuk 1 ends “17 sir” then kihap. Kids who count too fast will definitely be told to slow down lol.

When it’s time to prep for black belt test, we stop counting out loud at all.

17?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[serietah]

Right, we count it as 18 moves but kihap on 18 instead of saying 18 sir.

When I learned it we learned 16 motions I believe it was, because we combined the downblock and punch into one count each time. After my group we changed it to be separate counts.

 

[dvcochran]

I learned Taeguk forms in a repeating four-count rhythm, as I think a lot of tkd schools do.
Does this come from military influence? or sport training influence? or elsewhere?

Most Shotokan forms are more dynamic rhythmically in comparison, but there is a sometimes subtle steadiness.
Forms of Kung Fu appear to be more flowing and even more dynamic.

Do you ever try more free-flowing, personal, or just alternative pacing and rhythm in your training?
Is there benefit in performing the forms in a more quickly paced, continuous manner?

Hence one of the problems with the Taeguek forms. It has its purpose but they are very predictable in pattern, geared more toward the mindset of children. They are described as foundational building blocks; that is why they are frequently taught the way you describe, easy to break down into sections. They are like the trigrams on the Korean flag having three lines. I especially agree that the cadence on the first three is very hard to change. The last five are designed to allow the learned person to branch out and change the ebb and flow a little. Take the last line in Taeguek eight for example. There is a 4-5 (I forget)move series on the last line that is ripe for some individuality.
To answer your question about where the influence comes from I have never heard any military inference regarding the Taegueks. The forms were designed by a consortium of high ranking black belts in the early days of the WTF and Kukkiown organizing. Since they are used in WT tournaments, you have to say there is a sport influence. I doubt you would ever get the Kukkiwon to say it in those words though.

 

[dvcochran]

Right, we count it as 18 moves but kihap on 18 instead of saying 18 sir.

When I learned it we learned 16 motions I believe it was, because we combined the downblock and punch into one count each time. After my group we changed it to be separate counts.

What form are you currently working on and what is your rank?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is there benefit in performing the forms in a more quickly paced, continuous manner?

If you believe the end of your previous move is the beginning of your next move (such as a punch followed by a pull), you will do your form in continuous manner.

 

[_Simon_]

If you believe the end of your previous move is the beginning of your next move (such as a punch followed by a pull), you will do your form in continuous manner.

I like that John

 

[skribs]

If you believe the end of your previous move is the beginning of your next move (such as a punch followed by a pull), you will do your form in continuous manner.

That's not really the way wwe teach at my school. We want pauses after each technique or combination to show the students fully understand the details of the form.

 

[wab25]

I've used forced rhythm to help students fix learned pauses in their movement.

In my personal practice, I like to change up the rhythms in different ways, to focus on different things. Sometimes I slow everything down, sometimes I speed everything up. Sometimes I will swap and make the quick moves slow and the slow moves fast. Sometimes just randomly adjusting the rhythm as I go.

Sometimes, I focus on the stances, so I will make each move individually and hold it. Other times I want to work on the transitions between the stances, so I spend less time in the stances and more time in the stepping. By randomly messing with the rhythm, I can find out which transitions I can do quickly, which I have better balance in and really identify problem areas.

In class, I do the rhythm given. In my personal practice outside of class... I play and learn.

If you believe the end of your previous move is the beginning of your next move (such as a punch followed by a pull), you will do your form in continuous manner.

I like this as well. I also like to think of every move as a strike, then every move as a block, then as a push, then as an escape, then as a throw... Sometimes I will do every move as single individual techniques, designed to finish it with that single technique. Other times I will do the moves as if they were in a combination (strikes, grabs, throws,...).

The more you play and experiment, the more you learn.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's not really the way wwe teach at my school. We want pauses after each technique or combination to show the students fully understand the details of the form.

If you only pause after combination, you are not pause after each move. To pause at the end of each sentence make sense. To pause at the break of each word doesn't.

If you use a

- groin kick to set up a face punch, you don't want to pause after the groin kick.
- hook punch to set up a back fist, you don't want to pause after the hook punch.
- punch to set up a pull, you don't want to pause after the punch.
- ...

 

[skribs]

If you only pause after combination, you are not pause after each move. To pause at the end of each sentence make sense. To pause at the break of each word doesn't.

If you use a

- groin kick to set up a face punch, you don't want to pause after the groin kick.
- hook punch to set up a back fist, you don't want to pause after the hook punch.
- punch to set up a pull, you don't want to pause after the punch.
- ...

Taekwondo forms tend to be more staccato. Like recreations of the pictures in form diagrams.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Taekwondo forms tend to be more staccato. Like recreations of the pictures in form diagrams.

Should you pause after a

- downward block, or
- step in punch?

IMO, you should not pause after a downward block. Your downward block is used to set up a step in punch. You should pause at the end of your step in punch instead.

 

[skribs]

Should you pause after a

- downward block, or
- step in punch?

IMO, you should not pause after a downward block. Your downward block is used to set up a step in punch. You should pause at the end of your step in punch instead.

Out of curiosity, how much experience do you have in Taekwondo?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Out of curiosity, how much experience do you have in Taekwondo?

My wife has TKD black belt.

One guy in my fighting club was a TKD black belt. First I learned TKD kicks from him. Later on he learned long fist from me. I still remember he liked to used side kick to kick on a concrete wall.

I like his solo kicking drill:

1. right front kick,
2. right side kick,
3. right back kick,
4. left front kick,
5. left side kick,
6. left back kick,
7. repeat 1 - 6.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's not really the way wwe teach at my school. We want pauses after each technique or combination to show the students fully understand the details of the form.

I think that's useful, and I've also seen it cause stutters and pauses outside the form. I like to let natural pauses happen, and sometimes I like to force where the pauses are (which causes the linking between pauses, like @Kung Fu Wang is talking about). It's useful to practice linking and flowing at times, to ensure the body/brain isn't trained into creating pauses it doesn't actually need.