Suicide bombers. Split from Obama/armed forces thread

[Flying Crane]

Flying Crane,
We may well have a different world view.

One piece of advice for you though, using the word "regime". I wouldnt advise doing that. The reason is, usually the people who do that are the far left loonies. Your opinions may get discounted if you use that sort of language. I wouldnt want to see that happen. Even if I dont agree with you, your opinions are thought provoking and interesting.

Just advice, ignore if you like.

In my opinion, "regime" and the negative connotations that go with that term are the most accurate way to describe the Bush regime - I mean "administration". So I will continue to use the term.

Once upon a time, I considered myself a Republican. I wasn't especially fond of Bill Clinton. I even voted for W in the first election. I have been horrified ever since, at the way he and his thugs have run this country. I am now an Independent. While I don't see the Dems as being world saviors, they are a far better, more humane, and viable choice at this stage of the game than the Republicans.

The point is, my political leanings have been hugely affected by the actions of the current regime.

Really, I'm pretty middle-of-the-road, but if my use of that term makes you want to tag me as a "far left loonie", so be it. I'd take that label over "Republican" or "Conservative" any day, considering what those two terms have come to mean under the Neo-Con regime.

 

[Twin Fist]

Flying Crane,
If thats the way you feel about it, thats cool. It was just some free advice, and worth no more than you paid for it. I disagree, to some extent. But thats ok.

Bob,
you said:
"I find any nation that condones torture, secret trials, secret police, spying on its own people, unlawful and open ended detainments, and continuous violation of international law and treaty to be reprehensible. Now, who fits that description?"

sounds like the Soviets to me.

Dont get me wrong, i know exactly what you are trying to imply, but i dont agree that all those fit todays America. For example, I dont consider loud music, hot or cold, prolonged standing or water boarding torture. Electric shocks, pulling off fingernails, pulling teeth, THATS torture.

America has no secret police.

as for spying on it's own people, well, I know how you feel about that. We have already discussed it.

detaining people is only unlawfull if the law forbids it. That isnt happening.

And I dont much care about so called "international law" since those other countries routinely break it as well, IE France and germany's secret ILLEGAL business deals with Saddam....and I damned sure dont care what the UN thinks.

'It's a small portion of their population. The average person there, is most likely just like the average person here...could care less, they have more immediate needs to deal with. Identifying the "who" is important."

Absolutely true. The DO-ERS are a small numbers, survey's show that as much as 30% of muslims support those guys tho.

"Stop being the worlds policeman. Pull our military back, stop sending aid out, stop trying to help, and take care of our own here. Let Israel go it alone, or lean on others more than ol' Unkle Sam. Course, this also means, stop buying OPEC oil, and develop our own sources here and alternates as well. Make the US self-sufficient."

Absolutely agree

 

[Flying Crane]

For example, I dont consider loud music, hot or cold, prolonged standing or water boarding torture. Electric shocks, pulling off fingernails, pulling teeth, THATS torture.

Just so you know, the United States does hold Water Boarding as torture. There were Japanese military personnel who were put on trial and executed for using water boarding on POWs during WWII.

Even John McCain has stated that water boarding is torture. I saw his interview where he said it.

 

[Twin Fist]

John McCain CAN think that. Untill he becomes President and changes the law, it doesnt matter. Plus, the way he was water boarded isnt the same thing as we are doing now.

Water boarding as we do it produces only the FEAR of drowning, there is no water entering the lungs, therefore no "lasting harm or injury" therefore not legally torture.

For that matter, we water board our military officers as part of their training to resist the technique. If it was that bad, we wouldnt do that.

I find it distasteful, but VERY effective. KSM gave up the goods in less than 3 minutes of this technique.

 

[Empty Hands]

Water boarding as we do it produces only the FEAR of drowning, there is no water entering the lungs, therefore no "lasting harm or injury" therefore not legally torture.

By this definition, electroshock wouldn't be torture.

I find it distasteful, but VERY effective. KSM gave up the goods in less than 3 minutes of this technique.

*snort* Yeah, that's the problem. KSM proves that torture is only effective at producing confessions true or false, not the truth. KSM "confessed" to everything under the sun, none of which was true, and sent our agents on a wild, expensive goose chase of mammoth proportions that wasted our resources and directed attention away from the real threats. KSM is the perfect example of the argument that torture does not produce useful intelligence.

 

[Sukerkin]

And I dont much care about so called "international law" since those other countries routinely break it as well, IE France and germany's secret ILLEGAL business deals with Saddam....and I damned sure dont care what the UN thinks.

As when I talk to some British soldier friends of mine, I'm a little shocked when I find I agree with you on some rather right-of-Ghenghis-Khan points but the above is not one of those occaisions.

There is a well known phrase about 'glass houses' and 'mineral missile engagements' that applies here.

If you could find me any significant arms-dealing country in the world, not excepting America from this, that did not indulge in illegal trade with Iraq I'd be very interested in seeing proof of it.

We (Britain) did, no doubt about it - just like we sold kit to the Argentinians that we later blew up and/or sunk (some of it, it seems, whilst the war was in action).

I know that you've been a soldier, good sir and I find it difficult to cogniscence that you would believe such a thing as the 'innocence of nations' when it comes to the arms trade (particularly in the aftermath of the Cold War with such mountains of ordinance to shift).

 

[Twin Fist]

Empty Hands,
You are 100% wrong. Former CIA director James Woolsey says so.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZjNkYmU2NWVlOWE4MTU5MjhiOGNmMWUwMjdjZjU2ZjA=

KSM “didn’t resist,” one CIA veteran said in the August 13 issue of The New Yorker. “He sang right away. He cracked real quick.” Another CIA official told ABC News: “KSM lasted the longest under water-boarding, about a minute and a half, but once he broke, it never had to be used again.”

KSM’s revelations helped authorities identify and incarcerate at least six major terrorists:

Ohio-based trucker Iyman Faris pleaded guilty May 1, 2003 to providing material support to terrorists. He secured 2,000 sleeping bags for al-Qaeda and delivered cash, cell phones, and airline tickets to its men. He also conspired to derail a train near Washington, D.C. and use acetylene torches to sever the Brooklyn Bridge’s cables, plunging it into the East River.

Jemaah Islamiya (JI) agent Rusman “Gun Gun” Gunawan was convicted of transferring money to bomb Jakarta’s Marriott Hotel, killing 12 and injuring 150.

Hambali, Gunawan’s brother and ringleader of JI’s October 2002 Bali nightclub blasts, killed 202 and wounded 209.

Suspected al-Qaeda agent Majid Khan, officials say, provided money to JI terrorists and plotted to assassinate Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf, detonate U.S. gas stations, and poison American water reservoirs.

Jose Padilla, who trained with al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, was convicted last August of providing material support to terrorists and conspiring to kidnap, maim, and murder people overseas. Padilla, suspected of but not charged with planning a radioactive “dirty bomb” attack, reportedly learned to incinerate residential high-rises by igniting apartments filled with natural gas.

Malaysian Yazid Sufaat, an American-educated biochemist and JI member, reportedly provided hijackers Khalid al-Midhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi housing in Kuala Lumpur during a January 2000 9-11 planning summit. He also is suspected of employing “20th hijacker” Zacarias Moussaoui. Page 151 of The 9-11 Commission Report states: “Sufaat would spend several months attempting to cultivate anthrax for al Qaeda in a laboratory he helped set up near the Kandahar airport.”

Imagine how many innocent people these six Islamo-fascists (and perhaps others) would have murdered, had interrogators left KSM unwaterboarded and his secrets unuttered.

“The most important source of intelligence we had after 9/11 came from the interrogation of high-value detainees,” Robert Grenier, former chief of the CIA’s Counterterrorism Center, told The New Yorker’s Jane Mayer. He called KSM “the most valuable of the high-value detainees, because he had operational knowledge.”

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/intelligence/
DIRECTOR McCONNELL: Let’s take it from the beginning. Has waterboarding ever been used by a professional organization whose mission is to extract information? The answer is yes. You might ask what are the circumstances? Three times. Situations where there’s been interrogation over a period of time. It was unsuccessful. Water boarding was used and then information started to flow.
Just to put it in context, probably upwards of a quarter to a third of all the information generated in this period of time came from these three individuals. It’s saved lives.
I would be willing to say it’s saved lives for some of the people who know, of people who are known to people in this room. So you’ve got to ask yourself the question, is it worth it?


care to reevaluate your statement?

 

[Tez3]

Twin Fist (or is it Big Don) have you ever used torture, seen it being used or been the victim of it?
There is interrogation and there is torture. The latter rarely gives you the information you want, it gives you the information the person being tortured thinks you want to hear.The use of torture degrades everyone connected to it.It is barbaric and inhumane....whoever uses it and for whatever reason. it is also pointless other than to satisfy the lust for inflicting pain and humiliation.
Interrogation techniques can be very sophisticated, they are a mind game, knowing when to speak, when not to. It's a deadly game and frankly the only way you will get the accurate information you want. There are ways to play with your subjects mind, brain wash them if you like. Brainwashing which is a crude term is used by the military everyday.....on it's recruits. the process of breaking and then making recruits into soldiers is a classic case of 'brain washing'. I believe the jesuits were also good at techniques dsinged to retain control over their subjects, usually under 7 years old if I remember aright the phrase they use.
I could write a thesis on the effectiveness of interrogation techniques...oh wait I did. Physical torture is never acceptable morally and practically is pointless. so - very much a no win situation there.
And for good measure
http://www.cvt.org/main.php/Advocacy/TheCampaigntoStopTorture/WhatCVTknowsaboutTorture

 

[Tez3]

Empty Hands,
You are 100% wrong. Former CIA director James Woolsey says so.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZjNkYmU2NWVlOWE4MTU5MjhiOGNmMWUwMjdjZjU2ZjA=

KSM “didn’t resist,” one CIA veteran said in the August 13 issue of The New Yorker. “He sang right away. He cracked real quick.” Another CIA official told ABC News: “KSM lasted the longest under water-boarding, about a minute and a half, but once he broke, it never had to be used again.”

KSM’s revelations helped authorities identify and incarcerate at least six major terrorists:

Ohio-based trucker Iyman Faris pleaded guilty May 1, 2003 to providing material support to terrorists. He secured 2,000 sleeping bags for al-Qaeda and delivered cash, cell phones, and airline tickets to its men. He also conspired to derail a train near Washington, D.C. and use acetylene torches to sever the Brooklyn Bridge’s cables, plunging it into the East River.

Jemaah Islamiya (JI) agent Rusman “Gun Gun” Gunawan was convicted of transferring money to bomb Jakarta’s Marriott Hotel, killing 12 and injuring 150.

Hambali, Gunawan’s brother and ringleader of JI’s October 2002 Bali nightclub blasts, killed 202 and wounded 209.

Suspected al-Qaeda agent Majid Khan, officials say, provided money to JI terrorists and plotted to assassinate Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf, detonate U.S. gas stations, and poison American water reservoirs.

Jose Padilla, who trained with al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, was convicted last August of providing material support to terrorists and conspiring to kidnap, maim, and murder people overseas. Padilla, suspected of but not charged with planning a radioactive “dirty bomb” attack, reportedly learned to incinerate residential high-rises by igniting apartments filled with natural gas.

Malaysian Yazid Sufaat, an American-educated biochemist and JI member, reportedly provided hijackers Khalid al-Midhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi housing in Kuala Lumpur during a January 2000 9-11 planning summit. He also is suspected of employing “20th hijacker” Zacarias Moussaoui. Page 151 of The 9-11 Commission Report states: “Sufaat would spend several months attempting to cultivate anthrax for al Qaeda in a laboratory he helped set up near the Kandahar airport.”

Imagine how many innocent people these six Islamo-fascists (and perhaps others) would have murdered, had interrogators left KSM unwaterboarded and his secrets unuttered.

“The most important source of intelligence we had after 9/11 came from the interrogation of high-value detainees,” Robert Grenier, former chief of the CIA’s Counterterrorism Center, told The New Yorker’s Jane Mayer. He called KSM “the most valuable of the high-value detainees, because he had operational knowledge.”

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/intelligence/
DIRECTOR McCONNELL: Let’s take it from the beginning. Has waterboarding ever been used by a professional organization whose mission is to extract information? The answer is yes. You might ask what are the circumstances? Three times. Situations where there’s been interrogation over a period of time. It was unsuccessful. Water boarding was used and then information started to flow.
Just to put it in context, probably upwards of a quarter to a third of all the information generated in this period of time came from these three individuals. It’s saved lives.
I would be willing to say it’s saved lives for some of the people who know, of people who are known to people in this room. So you’ve got to ask yourself the question, is it worth it?


care to reevaluate your statement?

NO. names can be given very easily, usually minor players and to convict on the say so of someone who's been tortured is dubious. You don't know for sure you got the major players there, only those who are expendable and every terrorist organisation has a few of them.

 

[Twin Fist]

http://www.cvt.org/main.php/Advocacy/TheCampaigntoStopTorture/WhatCVTknowsaboutTorture

yeah, totally unbiased source there.............

sorry, There is evidence that disagrees with you, so while you may have a point, my jury is still undecided.

BTW- While I realize that Don and I seem we share some of the same opinions, we are not the same person.

 

[Tez3]

yeah, totally unbiased source there.............

sorry, There is evidence that disagrees with you, so while you may have a point, my jury is still undecided.

BTW- While I realize that Don and I seem we share some of the same opinions, we are not the same person.

The evidence doesn't disagree with me at all, I've spent 25 years and counting on this subject, it's the subject the RAF put me through university for and one I practice today. It's an interesting way to pass your working life.
I love the way you are so sure of everything you post, it's amusing. I love too that your posts are so unbiased, it's refreshing in a sort of say red backwards sort of way.
How many terrorists have you interrogated or even actually met? It must be a great many for you to be so sure that the evidence is against me.

Note to self...contact all 'varsity depts of Psychology in the morning to inform them all current thinking on interrogation techniques is wrong and all we have to do is stuff the subjects head in water for him to cough up the truth.
Damn, better start looking for new jobs people!

 

[Tez3]

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2006/10/01/787/66998

http://www.socialistworker.org/


http://www.socialistworker.org/



Up the Reds



Liverpool, Liverpool, Liverpool!

sorry, that was apropos nothing. back on track now.

 

[Twin Fist]

Tez,
no offense, but you = "someone on the internet" as far as i know.

James Woolsey = former head of the CIA giving an interview on widewide TV

hmm, who to believe....

nothing personal you understand, but I take everyone on the internet with a grain of salt. It seems the prudent thing to do.

And I didnt say you were wrong, but dont think you can just tell me you know everything on this subject and expect me to believe it. Grain of salt. Thats why I post links so often.

BTW- no need to get personal or to be insulting.

 

[Tez3]

Good grief, you'd be an idiot to believe someone on the internet just as you wouldn't believe the head of a spy agency!! hell spies don't even believe each other, and don't think we don't know your lot are spying on us and of course we're not spying on you!
I don't expect you to believe anything I write just as long as you understand I don't believe anything you write!

Moi, insulting? I don't know how you got that idea.

 

[Empty Hands]

KSM’s revelations helped authorities identify and incarcerate at least six major terrorists:

You complain about biased sources and then post articles from the National Review?

care to reevaluate your statement?

"One official cautioned that many of Mohammed's claims during interrogation were "white noise" - designed to send the U.S. on wild goose chases or to get him through the day's interrogation session."
http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/031607/news_20070316065.shtml

"Several senior counter-terrorism officials said they believed that Mohammed falsely confessed to some things, including the Pearl slaying, under duress or to obscure the roles played by operatives who might still be on the loose."
http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-t...5.story?coll=la-tot-topstories&track=ntothtml

There are other sources which claimed that other methods, such as implied threats to his family, is what produced what real information he did provide.

 

[Twin Fist]

Empty Hands
he didnt talk, nothing
90 seconds of WB, he sang like a bird

hmmmmm

Tez,
thats why I post links.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Regardless of the sources, sometimes, they are all wrong. I'm not saying that's the case here, but sometimes the truth is not out there. (Yup, I said it....take away my XFiles badge now, LOL!)

 

[Twin Fist]

Blasphemy!!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Blasphemy!!

LOL!

 

[Tez3]

Spymasters lie, that's why we employ them, who on earth wants a spymaster of a secret organisation who tells everyone the truth, oh good grief we'll be having people expecting honest politicians next!

Singing like a bird is no good when you want is talking like a man who has crimes to confess. After all, who understands birdsong? Ah yes, another birdbrain.