Style bashing

[CB Jones]

Mark Twain said something to the effect that it is better to let everyone think you are a fool rather than open your mouth and prove it.

Isn't it interesting how the saying you posted, and Mark Twain's, get proven so easily by some people.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Things are getting a bit tense on this thread. Take some time to just relax:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You didn't make any point, or even address the topic. You made a bunch of baseless accusations in the form of an incoherent run on sentence.

Good for you for figuring out periods, though. That's progress.

Why do you want to start a thread and argue with everybody. Do you suppose to encourage people to express their different opinions instead?

IMO, if you started a thread, you should put yourself in "listen mode", and not like the following pattern.

A: What do you think about ...?
B: My opinion is ...
A: You are wrong ...
C: My opinion is ...
A: You are wrong too ...
D: ...
A: ...

 

[DaveB]

One point of view - You are bashing my style!

My point of view - it is harmful and fraudulent to instill in people a false sense of confidence based on nonfunctional BS that will and has gotten many people hurt or killed. It is my duty as a martial artist to dispel these myths wherever I find them.

I have no problem with an informed criticism of any styles training methods, techniques or philosophy.

I do have a problem with people regurgitating the junk they read on a forum or article because their style is legit and they need to show everyone else how inferior their styled are. Or deciding that after 6 months they know the style well enough to trash it because their new style is soo much better.

The trouble is you can't do the former without drawing out the latter and since the ignorant always outnumber the informed it can be hard to not get overwhelmed.

So I get why the site has a zero tolerance policy, though in actuality it seems pretty relaxed.

The biggest problem with style bashing is that it suffers the same pitfall of all group based generalised denigration: it doesn't hold up to critical assessment (as The Any style Can Work, thread demonstrates).

Most of the evils attributed to style are just poor training practices. So the fix is to find a school with better practices or to take charge of your own development and supplement classes with informal sessions or other classes where you can work the skills from your first art in a more effective manner.

Non training related flaws like inefficient mechanics should not offend people when raised, and discussion of such things is informative. But is it sufficient reason to abandon a style that you enjoy??

Ultimately your crusade to inform is fine, IF people want to know. But then you have to acknowledge that your opinion is just that and the more uncritical and derogatory your approach the less your message will get across.

 

[pgsmith]

Im not telling anyone not to do anything. I just think people should be educated. If you walk out of aikido class thinking you are equipt to deal with a street situation by it, you are worse off than if you had 0 training at all. False confidence kills a lot of people. I don't think its right to scam people at all, especially not as it could pertain to life or death.

I just think people should be educated. ... OK, let's educate. I personally know and have had conversations with hundreds of martial artists, some of whom have been practicing for three or four decades. Out of these hundreds, If you discount those that are in law enforcement, I can count the number that have had to use their training to fight for their lives on my fingers. The truth is that unless you are involved in private security, or are a LEO by trade, you will most likely never have to use any of the fighting skills you've learned. I was forced to fight for my life several times in my youth due to where I grew up. Based on that experience, most of what is taught in any martial art is irrelevant.

False confidence kills people ... really? Do you have proof of this, or is this simply what you would like to believe? I've never seen false confidence kill anyone. I have, however, personally seen people not get harassed because they walked like they knew what they were doing.

I don't think its right to scam people at all, ... Really? If this was the case, you would be much more dedicated to stopping the supplements industry, or the used car industry. These two industries scam many millions of people every day, far and away more than have ever been scammed by the martial arts industry. Yet I feel confident in saying that you've done nothing at all about those.

The fact is that you, as a lot of other people do, feel good about putting down martial arts that you feel aren't effective because it makes you feel better about your own arts and your own skills. The truth is that there are as many reasons for practicing martial arts as there are people practicing. The odds of anyone having to actually depend upon their martial arts skills to survive in our society today are almost infinitesimal. Worrying about what someone else does affecting your own training is simply a sign of your own insecurities. If you keep training long enough, you'll gain enough confidence to realize that mostly, what other people do has no effect on your own training and who you are as a person.

Just my (lengthy) two cents on it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

they need to show everyone else how inferior their styled are.

10 years ago, when someone said that my MA style does not have ground game, I would defend my style and argued with that person about "how important the mobility is". Today when someone said that, I would just say, "I agree with you 100% there."

If we don't address those style weakness, how to evolve, and correct it, what other meaningful discussion can we have in a MA forum?

For example, When discussing the CMA Bagua system, I had addressed the following "style weakness" that made Bagua guys unhappy.

- To cross legs when you are in your opponent's kicking range can give your opponent a chance to sweep you down.
- To turn your back into your opponent without controlling his arms can give your opponent a chance to put his arm around your waist, spin with you, and drag you down.
- ...

 

[Xue Sheng]

That could be but the usage of Adieu was inaccurate for that sentence....unless you wanted a play on words.

Okie dokie.... not willing to take this silliness any further.....

My mistake...thank you for the correction.... are we done?

 

[Tez3]

Adieu is also an exclamation ie O God! probably a cry of tedium induced by this thread.

 

[Headhunter]

Yet none of you have the wherewithal to address the points made, and many of you would rather speculate about my leet youtubefu than actually read what was said.

And it is the prevalence of that very attitude and behaviour that explains the facticity of my opening post. A mutual admiration society hostile to any sort of criticism.

Rarely does a thread come full circle so elequently.

And yet again you're refusing to answer the main question about what your experience is you have a lot to say on every subject apart from that...that's convenient isn't it. Also what points you never made any points all you said is about how it's your duty to tell people they're wrong that's literally all you've said

 

[Headhunter]

I am curious...why the dislikes and disagrees??

Because it was a pretty stupid comment and you never answered what your problem was

 

[Headhunter]

QED



I couldn't script this any better.

Ah so you're trolling. Right got it

 

[gerardbu07059]

Martial art styles effectiveness is can not be judged simply on what martial art beats another martial art. They are probably all effective against a common assailant. Besides health benefits alone are worth it regardless of the style. People should lighten up in regards what style is macho or more macho

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[DaveB]

10 years ago, when someone said that my MA style does not have ground game, I would defend my style and argued with that person about "how important the mobility is". Today when someone said that, I would just say, "I agree with you 100% there."

If we don't address those style weakness, how to evolve, and correct it, what other meaningful discussion can we have in a MA forum?

For example, When discussing the CMA Bagua system, I had addressed the following "style weakness" that made Bagua guys unhappy.

- To cross legs when you are in your opponent's kicking range can give your opponent a chance to sweep you down.
- To turn your back into your opponent without controlling his arms can give your opponent a chance to put his arm around your waist, spin with you, and drag you down.
- ...

Sadly we don't have the detail of the responses you got, but I'm willing to bet that at least one person challenged your understanding of bagua. Now while that can be a way of deflecting it is also an acknowledgement that the things you suggest are bad are indeed undesirable. Which means that at least that student takes some form of action not to end up in those positions, which in turn shows the problem with criticising a whole style rather than individual practices.

 

[Martial D]

It's funny that so many of you are self identifying with this and getting offended. I didn't single out any style other than one comment on aikido not preparing you for combat, and otherwise have been very specific about who and what I am talking about(which I stand by).

Quite revealing. I wonder how many of you are pulling a paycheck from selling fantasy. More than a couple I'd wager.

 

[Ironbear24]

Ya, who am I to try to help people, and dispel ********. We should just let hucksters and frauds take peoples money, because its nobodies business.

.......I think not.

But what makes you an authority on what is ******** and what is not ********? That's where the problem comes in. If someone is happy with their tai chi or jazz cardio boxing class then who are we to tell them they are full of ****?

If that is what they are enjoying then good for them. It's all about about what their needs are.

 

[Headhunter]

It's funny that so many of you are self identifying with this and getting offended. I didn't single out any style other than one comment on aikido not preparing you for combat, and otherwise have been very specific about who and what I am talking about(which I stand by).

Quite revealing. I wonder how many of you are pulling a paycheck from selling fantasy. More than a couple I'd wager.

And I wonder who's sitting behind a computer with minimal training and talking trash. Just one I'd wager.

Again as people have said a million times on here. Yes there's frauds out there but.....now pay attention and try and let it sink in this time WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESN'T

 

[drop bear]

Not sure exactly which part of my post you think is dogmatic.

To my mind.. 'style' = dogma. No?

So again, you have people who choose to adhere to a particular 'style'. And some who don't.

My only point I suppose was why bother bashing styles? There are crazy cults out there that believe in superpowers and the like - are you going to waste your time and energy 'bashing' them, and every other idiotic group out there?

I've got more important things to do with my time is all.

I will certainly question the validity of super powers and the healthyness of cults.

I consider it part of an intrest in martial arts to be able to tell good from bad.

 

[JR 137]

It's funny that so many of you are self identifying with this and getting offended. I didn't single out any style other than one comment on aikido not preparing you for combat, and otherwise have been very specific about who and what I am talking about(which I stand by).

Quite revealing. I wonder how many of you are pulling a paycheck from selling fantasy. More than a couple I'd wager.

I've never been paid a dime.

What are you talking about?

Let me put it another way...

Why should I stop training like that just because you think it's not effective?

Who are you to judge what people should and shouldn't train?

As you come off as an expert in your own mind in the field of what are and aren't effective martial arts, what are your credentials?

My teacher unleashing his chi on us...

Why is it your mission to tell me I shouldn't be his student?

Regardless of everything in this thread...

How do you propose to expose all the alleged nonsense out there? What makes you think anyone gives a damn about your alleged expertise? What are your credentials again?

 

[drop bear]

Has it ever occurred to you that your chosen method of approach affects the response you get? Steve challenges me far more directly than you do to these folks, yet that only dissolves into frustration when we cannot manage to communicate clearly. Why? Because Steve seems to start from a more neutral, objective position, even when he and I disagree.

The resposes went into fanaticism though. Which is really hard to respond with logic.

I mean who do you think you are to question martial arts?

You are not enlightened in my style.

And this dislike bombing nonsense.

Unfortunately the responses does justify the concept that people are more emotionally attached to martial arts than logically deciding the best tool for the job.

Which to a certain degree is fair enough but can go too far if you are not aware of it.

 

[Tez3]

deciding the best tool for the job.

Usually easy to tell which is the tool.