Study shows benefits of heel-down

[TMA17]

Study finds that heel-down posture in great apes and humans confers a fighting advantage

“Study finds that heel-down posture in great apes and humans confers a fighting advantage”

 

[Marnetmar]

I was expecting an Onion article.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I glanced pretty quickly, so these may be answered and I missed it, but I would be interested in
A: does this hold true in people who are actively trained? How I read the article, there were volunteers, who may not have had training yet, so might not have the best power output to begin with.
B: How does it effect other parts of fighting? Power output is one thing, but you also have to focus on agility and balance/stability. How does having heel up/down impact those?

Those could be interesting studies going forward...

 

[TMA17]

Those are great questions. My initial thoughts were do you give up agility/mobility? As I’m learning WC, which uses a rooted stance, I find myself much slower and less agile as one would expect. Trade offs I guess. The importance of good footwork in WC can’t be stressed enough in my limited experience.

 

[TMA17]

I’m struggling with the rooted WC stance approach. Coming from a boxing background, and what I always felt was most comfortable to me, I have always preferred to keep my distance from an opponent.

My natural tendency is to always back up against a threat. I have not gotten into any real world fights (just one when I was very young) but when sparring always move back.

I would always rely on speed, using jab and keep my opponent away from me. With that approach I always had to be light on my feet.

I don’t think one way is better than the other but it’s challenging to me and hard to get used to.


From Mark Philips:

As in any fight, you still need to abide by the universal basics of Distance Control, Footwork, and Timing. These attributes have nothing to do with actual Wing Chun techniques, but just fighting

 

[wingchun100]

My personal opinion on the rooted stance:

It is not something you would want to sink into if you are not in Wing Chun range. At a distance, you want to have the mobile footwork of (yes, I am going to say it) a Western boxer, Muay Thai practitioner, or maybe even a fencer.

 

[CB Jones]

I don't see why having your heel down when punching would effect your movement or speed.

Even while on your toes and balls of your feet moving when you punch you set your feet and your heel comes down to help generate power.

 

[TMA17]

True. My one friend says he can access the rooted stance when needed, wherever. Not all western boxers are mobile either now that I think about it. Many stand or move slow. Ali was a guy that bounced around a lot.

 

[CB Jones]

True. My one friend says he can access the rooted stance when needed, wherever. Not all western boxers are mobile either now that I think about it. Many stand or move slow. Ali was a guy that bounced around a lot.

Even though Ali moved a lot he still set his feet when he punched.

That's what made guys like Ali, Roy Jones Jr, Sugar Ray, etc.... so beastly was there ability to move on their toes, set their feet, punch, and move away on there toes. That's where you create that combination of speed and power.

 

[KPM]

Study finds that heel-down posture in great apes and humans confers a fighting advantage

“Study finds that heel-down posture in great apes and humans confers a fighting advantage”

Be careful not to read too much into this. When they are talking about the evolution of the human foot and the differences between being on the heels vs. being on the toes, visualize the difference between an ape leaning forward and walking with his front knuckles on the ground and on the balls of his feet to one that has stood upright with his weight back on his heels. Obviously the ape standing upright is going to being to strike harder and push more strongly against something simply because he is upright and can put all of his weight behind the movement compared to the ape that is on "all fours." An ape can stand more upright in a more stable position than a monkey. Hence the idea about the evolution of the foot. However....this most certainly does not translate to saying that standing flat-footed when punching is better than punching with the rear heal raised! If they really wanted to make a better conclusion in that regard, they should have put a force sensor on a heavy bag and have people punch it while keeping their rear heel on the ground compared to punching it while allowing the rear heal to raise and rotate. Which do you think would generate more force and impact?

 

[geezer]

What KPM said. I certainly wouldn't draw sweeping conclusions from one very limited study. I do Wing Chun too, but if I want to really hit my hardest, especially from range, I'm inclined to fall back on my training in Latosa Escrima and use what is essentially a "Dempsey drop-step" with my rear heel raised.

And going from such a questionable study to sweeping assertions about striking power and the evolution of the human foot seems even more dubious. Upright stance and tool use? ...or efficiency in long range locomotion while foraging for food? Those ideas seem way more relevant to me. But, I digress...

 

[TMA17]

When I watch WC practitioners (usually bad WC YouTube videos) it’s clear that many don’t work on footwork enough. As others have said, I don’t see why can’t do WC and still be mobile and grounded. Alternating depending on distance.

 

[CB Jones]

Which do you think would generate more force and impact?

Heel down. It allows you to put your full weight behind the punch.

Heel up creates a cushion that takes away from you fully transferring all your energy into your target.

 

[KPM]

Heel down. It allows you to put your full weight behind the punch.

Heel up creates a cushion that takes away from you fully transferring all your energy into your target.

You couldn't be more wrong from a biomechanical standpoint. Have you actually tried it on a heavy bag? You really think someone would punch harder with their rear heel on the ground than they would lifting their rear heel so they can better project their weight and momentum forward into the bag???

 

[CB Jones]

You couldn't be more wrong from a biomechanical standpoint. Have you actually tried it on a heavy bag? You really think someone would punch harder with their rear heel on the ground than they would lifting their rear heel so they can better project their weight and momentum forward into the bag???

Yes....heel down is what I was taught from Boxing coach 25 years ago.

Creates a stronger punching base. If your heel is coming up you are lunging or overextending and losing power.

 

[KPM]

Yes....heel down is what I was taught from Boxing coach 25 years ago.

Creates a stronger punching base. If your heel is coming up you are lunging or overextending and losing power.

I'm sorry, but I have never seen a single boxer that would throw a hard cross into a heavy bag while keeping his rear heel down on the floor. Or a strong Jab for that matter. If you can find an example of a boxer doing that, I'd love to see it!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

“Study finds that heel-down posture in great apes and humans confers a fighting advantage”

- Be careful about your opponent's "foot sweep" when you have your "front foot heel down".
- When your fist can't reach at your opponent's face, if you slide your back foot forward, your fist may be able to reach at your opponent's face. There is a reason that "monkey stance" exist in CMA.

 

[geezer]

Here are some typical coaching clips on how to throw a boxer's right cross (right straight). Notice how the heel comes up every time. It's not lunging or over-extending. It's just using leg power and hip rotation to maximize power.

Now I'm not a boxer, so if there is an accepted alternative method in boxing that keeps both feet flat, I'd like to know. I'd be so surprised, I'd be caught flat-footed!

 

[CB Jones]

I'm sorry, but I have never seen a single boxer that would throw a hard cross into a heavy bag while keeping his rear heel down on the floor. Or a strong Jab for that matter. If you can find an example of a boxer doing that, I'd love to see it!

You're right. On the bag, with the right hand my right heel starts off down but as hips rotate the heel raises as it pivots. My left heel stays down though.

Now with the left hook and jab, the right heel stays down but my left heel comes up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the following clip, you can see the heel is up on each and every strike.

Example of "heel up".