Strengths and Weaknesses of Shaolin Kempo Karate

[Gufbal1982]

After my experience in Shaolin Kempo, I have found the following strengths:

good base for training
learning a little bit of every style
offense is sometimes a good defense.
Figuring out where your strengths lie

Here are the weaknesses I have found:

Defenses against a wrestler
Defenses against a BJJ practioner
Defenses against a Boxer
Defenses against a Thai Boxer.
Defenses against Japanese Ju Jitsu

True, there are some instructors that know these things in SKK, just like in any art, but they are few and far between. However, SKK does offer some good offenses.

What else have you guys found to be a strength or weakness?

 

[CTKempo Todd]

Every technique 'as originally taught' was off of a straight right hand and many of the initial blocks in combinations/kempos and movements turned a blind eye to the left hand that would knock you in the head before you can get your first strike off. Big problems..

The beauty of Kempo/Kenpo is the adaptation. All the techniques in SKK can be adapted to the 'weaknesses' that one foresees. First problem is many don't analize as such and therefore never bother adapting (because they are blind to the need to adapt). What you then have is someone punching in and making the practioner look really good and that is it. If you have an instructor or student look at things critically and adapt the movements to different situations ..then bingo..home run.

So the art itself does not necessarily have any more or less weaknesses than anything else..its really the weakness in the understanding, translation and interpretation.

My .02 cents.

 

[MJS]

Todd summed it up very well, but I'll throw in my .02 as well.

I agree, and the same issue comes up in EPAK. I remember when I first joined up here, I would have discussions with folks and make the statement that there was no grappling in Ken/m/po. Sure, while there may not have been a specific defense against the mount, as you'd see in BJJ, there were ideas that could be used. The thing is, is that its up to the student to find them. The pieces of the puzzle are there, the student has to assemble them. Of course, having an instructor that can guide the student is important as well.

 

[Danjo]

I liked the versatility when compared to an art like Shotokan or TKD in that it dealt with knocking people to the ground and following up etc.

Over all I found it too stiff in the early stages even though it gets more fluid as you move up. It's like you're learning two or three distinctly different martial arts that aren't blended together very well. It' was too compartmentalized.

Lack of defenses against grapplers and boxers are the biggest problems in SKK. In the western world, these are what most people are going to have experience with given that boxing is always on TV and wrestling is taught in PE classes. A martial art needs to have the most common likely attacks in mind IMO and teach them first.

Like Michelle mentioned, there are exceptions that will be found in the SKK world depending on the instructor.

 

[almost a ghost]

Defense Manuevers/Combinations, and Kempoes. I'll try and give examples, I've forgot alot of them, but I'll try.

Obviously, one of my points is going to be that not everyone is going to stand in a static stance and straight punch in or do an easy to block hook punch, but I'd like to get more technical with the techniques with that point of mine.

1. The attacker is always fully committed to the attack, and never comes back on guard and never blocks what you are doing.

2. A good part of the techniques are just going to get you lit up in a fight because they put into the path of a second punch, while I've seen this addressed in classes it was with a second controlled attacked. Examples. 2, 5, 10, 18

3. During the technique there are "setup" strikes to get the attacker moving/reacting in a certain way. Without any considerations of "What if I miss or they don't react that way". Examples 2, 4, 26.

4. Some of the logic in the techniques.. while at the end of some are you leaning over your opponent to strike, what ever happned to just kicking the guy while he was on the ground? Examples 1, 2, 4, 10, 26

5. Just waaaaayyyy too many techniques... quantity over quality. Some may see that's just the certain school, but pretty much accross the board there are a set number of techniques to learn before advancing. I've also been told that you will never pull off a full DM during a live situation, but then why remember so many techniques then be told basicly "You won't really be able to do that in a fight".

6. Other than 6, 7, 8/9, have you ever seen somebody pull of a DM while sparring? NO, but the opponent is moving.

 

[marlon]

I find skk pretty complete as the martial arts go, including ground work and defense against boxers and wrestlers. It is very true that the instructor can make all the difference, so all things being equal skk is great imo. My teacher Shihan Ingargiola makes it a requirement for 5th degree to be able to pull off techniques while sparring. Knowing this i train to get there should i ever get to test for that level and i begin to prepare the students from green belt for this. The combinations and techniques are numerous b/c you are training to fight from any position and any situation. The blocks in training off of a straight step through punch as in all martial arts can be a strike or guard and it dose not need to remain a block and should not as the situation develops. The curricullum i have teaches ground work and we ttrain to put the system together as a single flow and not differing styles at all. Shihan Ingargiola's curricullum also addresses this clearly. text book is teaching , learning is live and adaptation is the heart of kempo. The forms contain much of what people say is looking for but missing from skk...and not just in the okinawan forms. I have trained in Judo and aikido and shotokan and kyokushin ansd with various people so...I chose skk as my art b/c i found it to be the most appealing and complete for myself artistically and for self defense.

the weaknesses i see are too many unqualified and / or idealistic cloned teachers. there is a massive amount of techniques to remember and work into the body / muscle memory, although i like having all ther techniques for the above mentioned reasons. too many 'masters' not learning and being corrected by qualified instructors. Too easy to rank in most schools. Lack of writings / teachings by qualified people to convey the concpts taught by the system and its techniques leaving too much room for ...fantasy


Respectfully,
marlon

 

[RevIV]

I am truly glad that my experiences were better than most in SKK. Our school for most of its early existence was underneath a boxing center. We had a boxing ring in our dojo and we would switch up on a monthly basis and go upstairs and box and would almost always do our Kempo's and Combo's off of a person boxing. waiting , shifting deflecting the jab and attacking. As for defense against a wrestler and BJJ (and i am not talking about pro ones or UFC ones) but the avg. wrestler or those just out there to learn and pick up a hobby, i have never had a problem defending against them.(granted if they got me on the ground i would resort to the nasties. gauging, biting) Thats what the first stages of SKK were meant for. Like Danjo said it was rigid in the beginning then becomes more fluid. Well that rigidness was meant to help you form a good solid, grounded base. sinking your weight so you could not get scooped. Plus thats what the downward elbows to the spine are meant for. root your stance and plant your seeds into his spine with your elbow. Now is this the only defense for the tackle? no. but just easy to write and is what i have done in real life situations when they come up, so it is some of the first moves i teach.
In Peace
Jesse

 

[Danjo]

My teacher Shihan Ingargiola makes it a requirement for 5th degree to be able to pull off techniques while sparring.

You're not required to make your techniques work in sparring until 5th degree? That seems like a long wait to me. I would think that you should take whatever techniques you have at your current belt (Whatever that happens to be) and be able to make them work as much as possible using repetition drills etc. until you have them down.

 

[LawDog]

Today many of the SKK schools lack in the understanding of tactical theory and how to properly apply it into their own schools material.

 

[kosho]

With the right teacher SKK is a strong system. BUT there are many who are teaching this art who should not be. If you take the top master of this art you will see many who can handle thems selfs again Boxer, BJJ, and what not. I do see many teq. that I have changed to work better for me and what i feel is a stronger SKK. in the katas and what not there are, throwing arts, controlling arts ETC. But if your teacher never shows you them. the kata is only a dance. Plus you get what up put into. NO matter what style you train in. I myself love KEMPO. I do train in
Kosho Ryu kempo and Shaolin kempo, but i teach the SKK as my base and add kosho idears to it. I feel this makes my students stronger then others in many ways. ( thats just me) but to say SKK is weak in a lot of areas I would say no.
my 2 cents
kosho

 

[DavidCC]

I'm only a green belt so my perspective is limited to my experience.

Things I think SKK in general could benefit from:

weakness - lack of a standard vocabulary
I think SKK could benefit from some degree of the formalization of knowledge as found in AKK. We find our way to (many of) the same principles of self-defense, but in SKK there seems to rarely be an explicit map and corresponding vocabulary. too much depends on the teacher's interpretation. Maybe something like the Web of Knowledge would be sufficient.

weakness - stances don't use optimal anatomical principles
I think SKK should abandon the half-moon C step and the squared up half-moon stance in favor of the bow stances as found in Kenpo, specifcially SL-4 kenpo. Maybe not abandon them, but to use them where appropriate and the more stable yet less mobile bow stances where they are more appropriate.

weakness - as a hybrid it has many parts glued to it. but what is the core? How deep does it get? Face it, it comes from street-fighting not Chinese Temples. So where can relevant depth be found?
I would eliminate most of the pinan content and influence. Perhaps keep the pinan 1 for the earliest belts. I haven't really thought all the way through this, but from what I have done and read, I would rather use something like (in order)
P2 (9th-7th kyu) - to learn basic footwork, learn how to learn, truly introductory. required for orange.
Sanchin (6th kyu) - breath control, energy control, mental control, etc. Performing proper sequence and breathing signature required for purple, however this form will continue to develop over the student's entire life time.
Naihanchi (4th kyu) - pressure point and joint-lock bunkai. Advanced self-defense.

... something else... need another here... but this is where I am in my progression so it i shard for me to look beyond here...

As for the Pesare Katas - I don't know all of them yet, and I suspect that the versions I am learning are a few steps removed from what is generally practiced so I wil leave those out of the discussion. But I think the 3 kata I list above might be sufficient to achieve a Shodan if taught properly.


Thinks I think SKK does well
It is an aggressive style with offense as defense.
Which is good because the combos often fail to address more complicated attacks, relying on the agressive offense to take away the attacker's opportunity to follow-up

It is not bound by too much tradition
it is no sin in SKK to incorporate material from other styles, especailly where there is some synergy - such as ju-jutsu or aikido.

The learning curve is not too steep
This allows people with varying levels of commitment to get what they need from it... although for thsoe who want to go as deep as possible this probably makes that journey a bit longer...



As my exposure to the information contained in the head (and coursebooks) of Doctor Ron Chapel and the Martial Science University continues, it is difficult NOT to polymorph the SKK techniques to use the things I have learned there. And yet I think that SKK does not come to that table a beggar, and that it does have soemthing to offer. As a hybrid system developed by people disconnected from their roots (Pesare from Gascon, Gascon form Emperado, Mitose from wherever the heck he learned it) I believe it has lots of vestigial appendages of uncertain origin that could be removed and still be, in essence, the same style. It seems to me the spiritual root of Hawaiian Kempo is Okinawa-te; and the spiritual root of Okinawa-te is White Crane kung Fu. So i would like to pursue those threads.

 

[kosho]

You're not required to make your techniques work in sparring until 5th degree? That seems like a long wait to me. I would think that you should take whatever techniques you have at your current belt (Whatever that happens to be) and be able to make them work as much as possible using repetition drills etc. until you have them down.
__________________


I agree with this comment

Kosho

 

[CTKempo Todd]

You're not required to make your techniques work in sparring until 5th degree? That seems like a long wait to me. I would think that you should take whatever techniques you have at your current belt (Whatever that happens to be) and be able to make them work as much as possible using repetition drills etc. until you have them down.
__________________


I agree with this comment

Kosho

So both of you go speak with Prof Ingargiola and tell him how you feel....

I'm sure he has his reasons. He puts out some awesome martial artists who are tried and true in kickboxing arena's as well as other areas of martial arts.
You can reach him at www.shaolinkempo.com

Anyways let's stick to the thread...
It seems many of the folks are saying the same thing..The art is sound providing the practitioner is versatile enough to know and teach adaptation.

Remember the questions regards the art itself..no about "how many instructors there are..blah blah"..

Peace Brothers...

 

[MeatWad2]

I would train at Prof. I dojo if I went back to skk.
He has a mixed martial arts back ground and is a well rounded fighter.
I would not train at some mcdojo again.

 

[Gufbal1982]

I never said that the art itself is bad. It's a good base! However, I had an instructor that didn't teach the grappling part...anything like that. I'm not saying a specific escape from the mount (which has a lot to do with bridging) or some specific armbar escape...just some basic principles. I never got those.

As I stated, it depends on the instructor. I believe I was taught differently also because I am a female. My brothers learned a different art than I did. They learned more defense, but I didn't have privy to their lessons.

Do any of you instructors teach different applications for males and females? I know I did when I had a school because of the fact that I was forced to go out and learn how to do applications elsewhere. I always wanted to impart what I learned on my students. Danjo will back me up on this...

 

[DavidCC]

With the right teacher SKK is a strong system. BUT there are many who are teaching this art who should not be. If you take the top master of this art you will see many who can handle thems selfs again Boxer, BJJ, and what not. kosho

Isn't this true of darn near EVERY system? So that is not really a "weakness of SKK" as I understand the question.

I don't think there could be a system that would produce good people DESPITE having the wrong teacher.

but I think there might be systems that would not produce good fighters no matter how good the teacher.

 

[Danjo]

Isn't this true of darn near EVERY system? So that is not really a "weakness of SKK" as I understand the question.

I don't think there could be a system that would produce good people DESPITE having the wrong teacher.

but I think there might be systems that would not produce good fighters no matter how good the teacher.

I agree that that is the context of the question. However, I think it might be more of an idea that certain systems have built in limitations of how far they can take a practitioner, while others can continue growing by pursuing a given art.

My idea of saying that people should be able to work their techniques at the earliest stage rather than waiting until 5th degree, was more of the idea that while there are many layers to an onion, it's all onion. While it would be expected that a 5th degree black belt would have a lot more knowledge and experience than a beginner, the idea that a beginner should somehow not be expected to effectively employ what he does have is strange.

BTW, turning out good kickboxers is meaningless in terms of how effective a martial art is. There are kickboxers who had zero or minimal MA experience before starting kickboxing. Kickboxing is a sport that has limits built into it from the outset. The curriculum is extemely basic and it is geverned by rules. One can learn to be an effective kickboxer in 6 months. One cannot become equally proficient in Kenpo/Kempo in 6 months. So using the fact that a coach turns out good kickboxers as a criteria for saying he knows what he's doing teaching Kempo is illogical since it's two different things. He may ALSO be a good kempo instructor, but one doesn't prove the other.

 

[Danjo]

I never said that the art itself is bad. It's a good base! However, I had an instructor that didn't teach the grappling part...anything like that. I'm not saying a specific escape from the mount (which has a lot to do with bridging) or some specific armbar escape...just some basic principles. I never got those.

As I stated, it depends on the instructor. I believe I was taught differently also because I am a female. My brothers learned a different art than I did. They learned more defense, but I didn't have privy to their lessons.

Do any of you instructors teach different applications for males and females? I know I did when I had a school because of the fact that I was forced to go out and learn how to do applications elsewhere. I always wanted to impart what I learned on my students. Danjo will back me up on this...

A lot of instructors have alternate techniques for females and children. One can't deny reality when training if one is serious about it.

 

[Carol]

There isn't anything wrong with teaching females different applications than males. Most men don't train to defend themselvevs against a guy a foot taller and twice their weight.

To assume that a 5' 2" 125 pound woman will address a 6' 1" 210 pound male attacker the same way a 6' tall 200 pound man will is preposterous.

However, for instructors to not take female students seriously, respectfully, or responsibly is wrong.

 

[Flying Crane]

After my experience in Shaolin Kempo, I have found the following strengths:

learning a little bit of every style

Just curious to know what are these styles? How did they get combined into the one system, and what is their origin, as far as where did the individuals learn them who grafted them together? thx.