Street guys. Please give direct technical answers.

[drop bear]

I would say that anyone selling “self defense” particularly for “street” is in general going to be completely full of pucky,and good for fuckall.

I think it is a weird mental bias.

I have seen legitimate MMA guys. Go from this is my game based on my experience to this is the street. Because the street.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think it is a weird mental bias.

I have seen legitimate MMA guys. Go from this is my game based on my experience to this is the street. Because the street.

I don’t doubt their personal ability. I doubt it’s applicable to teaching practical “ street self defense”. Unless perhaps it’s targeted to a certain location and population where blending in and avoidance is the goal, but that’s another thing altogether and not useful to the general populace.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In general, my street advice is have good cardio, be aware, go to bed early.

 

[Argus]

I don't normally comment on these Sports VS TMA / MMA vs Street type discussions because they've been done to death, and a ton of people are very closed minded and never going to change their opinion no matter what you say. But I feel like throwing my hat in the ring for whatever reason, so here goes my half arsed attempt at that. Not going to put too much effort into this because I doubt if anyone really wants to discuss it in earnest or not:

The skills that dominate MMA -- which are all cherry picked from different TMA systems and sports a like, are incredibly useful for self defense. But the context of MMA and Self Defense are very, very different and require different skills and an awareness of that. I think far too many people in the sports world are hand wavy about subtle differences in context that can get you killed. At the same time, many TMA practitioners are a bit too hand wavy with regards to the very pragmatic training of MMA and its applicability to self defense.

The thing with sports and competition is that it is very, very specialized -- far more than people realize. Even the most nuanced changes can change everything. Let me offer a few:

Have you ever practiced your footwork on unlevel ground full of rocks and stones, changes in height (curbs, hills, dips), and obstacles on the ground? Most people assume that such things aren't a big deal. But go and try sparring with someone on a rocky riverside and see how that goes. Or try it on a hill. Or in the mud. Or where there's a curb and random obstacles. Suddenly, you realize that you have to change what you're doing entirely. You have to rethink it. What you've spent years training for in the context of a perfectly flat mat or dojo hall gets you killed.

Having studied a ton of weapons based martial arts, I see this even in TMA, too. Some people believe you can just extrapolate -- learn one weapon and apply what you learned to any somewhat similar weapon. But when you actually try that for real, you learn that the tiniest nuances make a huge difference. There's simply no way that you can use a Machete the same as you would use an Arming Sword. If you try, you'll get your hand chopped off trying to use the machete like an Arming Sword or Saber, and you'll get a point in your face if you try using the Arming Sword like a machete or bolo. Pick up an Uchigatana and try using it like a Longsword and you'll struggle mightily. Try using a spear like a staff and you're literally and figuratively missing the point. The nuances here are way bigger in practice -- I'm painting with simple broad strokes here just to communicate a point, but even much finer nuances can absolutely make or break techniques that you would be used to relying on in one context that would get you killed in a slightly different context.

So when someone says you have to be aware of weapons, or aware of the hard pavement, or aware of objects on the ground, or multiple attackers, etc. etc., you can't just wave your hand and say that doesn't matter all that much. Those really are game changing.

More subtle points people also don't think about are things like how the behavior of a trained person in a competition changes from the behavior of an instinctive fighter who's sole objective is to do you harm. The instinctive fighter, while sloppier, is far more committed and far less cautious. The engagements tend to happen unexpectedly at close range already -- no starting at a distance, no signal that something's about to happen other than the curious sting of a knife in your side or the last moment realization of a fist coming at you. Many, many TMA techniques actually work exceptionally well in this context, and are even the best answers to them, even if you would never ever see a trained opponent come at you that way in a competition. This is very much the case in my own experience, where I've found TMA solutions to be more applicable often times in response to what an untrained fighter will do. But I've also similar anecdotes from others. One that stuck with me was from a guy who did MMA, but had also started up Wing Chun. He said that what came out in the ring, in competition, was his MMA training. But when he was attacked on the street, what came out, to his surprise, was his Wing Chun training. It was simply what most suited the situation and the way he was attacked.

You can absolutely adapt MMA to handle these sorts of nuances, but almost nobody who argues about this kind of thing actually does so in training. You have to train with a very strong awareness of the context you're training for, and you have to actually try this crap out and see for yourself just what you might be used to doing that could, in a slightly different context, get you killed. Isn't that what the MMA mindset is all about? Why then so many people acting like what they do in the ring is the gold standard, applies universally, and that we don't need to question that?

It's this close minded, short sighted, context unaware attitude that just baffles me with regards to these discussions. Next you'll be telling me how Kendo practitioners resting their bamboo swords on eachother's necks in competition wouldn't really be a problem with live blades and that Koryu sword arts are dumb. Even nuanced differences in rules and context make a huge difference, and just because you can point to many examples on the TMA side of things of people doing things no better or worse, doesn't validate your position. It just means that there are a lot of unwise humans making false assumptions about what they do all over the place.

I make a lot of analogies to another very risk centric activity when discussing martial arts -- investing. One of the most useful mental models in investing, which I think can be applied to Martial Arts, is the principle of "Inversion" -- ie, to get to a goal that is ambiguous or highly complex, don't think about what you have to do to get there, but rather:

1) All the things you might do that would prevent you from getting there
2) All the things that if you don't do them, will prevent you from getting there

Or maybe more simply for our purposes:
- All the subtle ways you can get yourself killed.

Start there with that. Anybody who's not starting there and thinking from first principals just has an agenda and doesn't know anything, regardless of whether they're doing TMA, MMA, or what have you.

 

[Rich Parsons]

In general, my street advice is have good cardio, be aware, go to bed early.

Rule Number #1 - Avoidance
Rule Number #2 - See Rule Number #1.

Avoid the bad parts of town.
Avoid being below half a tank of gas which could force one to stop in a not favorable location.
Avoid standing out.
Avoid going to places where alcohol is served
Avoid places with young males looking to prove something
Avoid engaging
Avoid getting hit. (Run, Block and Run. etc. )
Avoid getting hurt.
...

If one goes to bed early, and does not get up too early and avoids certain locations the chances of confrontation goes way down.
.
I get that.
I teach that.
.
I also have to write in the past a poster said people would never know what they would do.
I explained I was there and did stuff so I have an idea of how I would react.
Is it different based upon situations, and distances and everything else?
Yes it is. Everything in life is solving a differential equation and finding the area under the curve as one approaches zero or some other limit.
People do it all the time. If they didn't they couldn't use a fork for they would stab themselves in the face.
They couldn't drink from a glass as they would smash it into their face.

So taking it to absolute makes all discussions on the internet pointless. In my opinion.

In the past when a person who has made these comments about people not knowing until they have been there, I ask have they been there. Please provide examples.
Like have you been shot? Shot at? Long gun? Shot gun or rifle? Or pistol? Semi automatic or revolver?
Have you been stabbed? Cut?
Have you been hit by tazers or cattle prods.
Have you faced these weapons but not been injured because of luck? or because of verbal judo? or because of some skill set? Please explain.
.
Have you been hit by a car trying to run you over as a pedestrian?
Have you been attacked by swords and axes?
Have you been attacked by sticks, bats, golf clubs or other blunt items?

The list goes on and on.

All but being shot has occurred to me when I was younger. It helped pay for college.

The LEOs at this point usually reply that anyone that has that experience is a criminal or worked certain cities.

Your arguments almost seem to be reaching for the point of authority that no one can make a point of self defense because of your definition and if anyone does try they are wrong.

So, I am wrong. Ok Fine move on. Stop commenting. Let people discuss.

Or present examples as was asked. (* Sorry Drop Bear I did not give any real examples in my first post. I am in trouble for this myself. *)

Now can it be taught?
Yes.
Does it require someone being able to learn how to damage? Yes
See example about ex girlfriend stabbing me repeatedly hard with an aluminum training to make sure she knew the areas and position and the intensity required.

I have also seen many who want a certificate so they can 'FEEL' safe. I was even told in a business class by an instructor that I could make money doing this.
I had to explain to him that it would work short term. And then one person gets hurt or runs their mouth and gets hurt and you get the reputation of not being any good and loose most of your clientele.

I have a couple of examples. One a niece in High School and another an associates daughter.
The firsts she wanted to learn to hit hard. So we exchanged shots until she could take a punch at about 50% from me and give back everything she had.
I young male cup her rear with his finger in the middle and S A'd her. She turned and hit him dead center of the chest. He went down with no breath and lost any chance hitting hard on his butt. Teacher said she was in trouble for fighting. And this is where she was smart and had listened to me. Her reply was on point: "You watched him S A me and you are going to punish me for self defense. I'll see you in the office. She went there. The teacher got into trouble The young male was expelled.
The Second was more technical training , with releases and strikes and locks and dirty boxing from FMA.
She graduated and was working as a social worker. She showed up to a client where the ex had just left from beating her. While she was there, he came back and tried to beat the one I knew. She released the grab and was able to cover enough to counter with a throat stab and heel kick to shin so he went back to the ground where she kicked him again, and then rolled him over and pinned him with a restraining lock that most police use.

I got calls from both of they after the incidents with thanks.

The point is Self Defense requires Violence. If you are not going to use avoidance. Once Avoidance refuses to work, then Violence is required.
If they are not able to execute the violence ( And many people cannot ) then they need to train to know that so that they will use avoidance.

Blocking works. When surprised or out of position and or looking to catch up on lost timing. Deflecting by some is not blocking.
Redirection is not a block to most.
Slipping and countering is definitely not a block.

Yet, the block will give many that chance to try to catch up.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Rule Number #1 - Avoidance
Rule Number #2 - See Rule Number #1.

Avoid the bad parts of town.
Avoid being below half a tank of gas which could force one to stop in a not favorable location.
Avoid standing out.
Avoid going to places where alcohol is served
Avoid places with young males looking to prove something
Avoid engaging
Avoid getting hit. (Run, Block and Run. etc. )
Avoid getting hurt.
...

If one goes to bed early, and does not get up too early and avoids certain locations the chances of confrontation goes way down.
.
I get that.
I teach that.
.
I also have to write in the past a poster said people would never know what they would do.
I explained I was there and did stuff so I have an idea of how I would react.
Is it different based upon situations, and distances and everything else?
Yes it is. Everything in life is solving a differential equation and finding the area under the curve as one approaches zero or some other limit.
People do it all the time. If they didn't they couldn't use a fork for they would stab themselves in the face.
They couldn't drink from a glass as they would smash it into their face.

So taking it to absolute makes all discussions on the internet pointless. In my opinion.

In the past when a person who has made these comments about people not knowing until they have been there, I ask have they been there. Please provide examples.
Like have you been shot? Shot at? Long gun? Shot gun or rifle? Or pistol? Semi automatic or revolver?
Have you been stabbed? Cut?
Have you been hit by tazers or cattle prods.
Have you faced these weapons but not been injured because of luck? or because of verbal judo? or because of some skill set? Please explain.
.
Have you been hit by a car trying to run you over as a pedestrian?
Have you been attacked by swords and axes?
Have you been attacked by sticks, bats, golf clubs or other blunt items?

The list goes on and on.

All but being shot has occurred to me when I was younger. It helped pay for college.

The LEOs at this point usually reply that anyone that has that experience is a criminal or worked certain cities.

Your arguments almost seem to be reaching for the point of authority that no one can make a point of self defense because of your definition and if anyone does try they are wrong.

So, I am wrong. Ok Fine move on. Stop commenting. Let people discuss.

Or present examples as was asked. (* Sorry Drop Bear I did not give any real examples in my first post. I am in trouble for this myself. *)

Now can it be taught?
Yes.
Does it require someone being able to learn how to damage? Yes
See example about ex girlfriend stabbing me repeatedly hard with an aluminum training to make sure she knew the areas and position and the intensity required.

I have also seen many who want a certificate so they can 'FEEL' safe. I was even told in a business class by an instructor that I could make money doing this.
I had to explain to him that it would work short term. And then one person gets hurt or runs their mouth and gets hurt and you get the reputation of not being any good and loose most of your clientele.

I have a couple of examples. One a niece in High School and another an associates daughter.
The firsts she wanted to learn to hit hard. So we exchanged shots until she could take a punch at about 50% from me and give back everything she had.
I young male cup her rear with his finger in the middle and S A'd her. She turned and hit him dead center of the chest. He went down with no breath and lost any chance hitting hard on his butt. Teacher said she was in trouble for fighting. And this is where she was smart and had listened to me. Her reply was on point: "You watched him S A me and you are going to punish me for self defense. I'll see you in the office. She went there. The teacher got into trouble The young male was expelled.
The Second was more technical training , with releases and strikes and locks and dirty boxing from FMA.
She graduated and was working as a social worker. She showed up to a client where the ex had just left from beating her. While she was there, he came back and tried to beat the one I knew. She released the grab and was able to cover enough to counter with a throat stab and heel kick to shin so he went back to the ground where she kicked him again, and then rolled him over and pinned him with a restraining lock that most police use.

I got calls from both of they after the incidents with thanks.

The point is Self Defense requires Violence. If you are not going to use avoidance. Once Avoidance refuses to work, then Violence is required.
If they are not able to execute the violence ( And many people cannot ) then they need to train to know that so that they will use avoidance.

Blocking works. When surprised or out of position and or looking to catch up on lost timing. Deflecting by some is not blocking.
Redirection is not a block to most.
Slipping and countering is definitely not a block.

Yet, the block will give many that chance to try to catch up.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Just my perspective. Do you. I only speak from my experiences, I can’t speak to yours. I stated my opinion and why I have it. How others may feel about that is entirely up to them.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Rule Number #1 - Avoidance
Rule Number #2 - See Rule Number #1.

Avoid the bad parts of town.
Avoid being below half a tank of gas which could force one to stop in a not favorable location.
Avoid standing out.
Avoid going to places where alcohol is served
Avoid places with young males looking to prove something
Avoid engaging
Avoid getting hit. (Run, Block and Run. etc. )
Avoid getting hurt.
...

If one goes to bed early, and does not get up too early and avoids certain locations the chances of confrontation goes way down.
.
I get that.
I teach that.
.
I also have to write in the past a poster said people would never know what they would do.
I explained I was there and did stuff so I have an idea of how I would react.
Is it different based upon situations, and distances and everything else?
Yes it is. Everything in life is solving a differential equation and finding the area under the curve as one approaches zero or some other limit.
People do it all the time. If they didn't they couldn't use a fork for they would stab themselves in the face.
They couldn't drink from a glass as they would smash it into their face.

So taking it to absolute makes all discussions on the internet pointless. In my opinion.

In the past when a person who has made these comments about people not knowing until they have been there, I ask have they been there. Please provide examples.
Like have you been shot? Shot at? Long gun? Shot gun or rifle? Or pistol? Semi automatic or revolver?
Have you been stabbed? Cut?
Have you been hit by tazers or cattle prods.
Have you faced these weapons but not been injured because of luck? or because of verbal judo? or because of some skill set? Please explain.
.
Have you been hit by a car trying to run you over as a pedestrian?
Have you been attacked by swords and axes?
Have you been attacked by sticks, bats, golf clubs or other blunt items?

The list goes on and on.

All but being shot has occurred to me when I was younger. It helped pay for college.

The LEOs at this point usually reply that anyone that has that experience is a criminal or worked certain cities.

Your arguments almost seem to be reaching for the point of authority that no one can make a point of self defense because of your definition and if anyone does try they are wrong.

So, I am wrong. Ok Fine move on. Stop commenting. Let people discuss.

Or present examples as was asked. (* Sorry Drop Bear I did not give any real examples in my first post. I am in trouble for this myself. *)

Now can it be taught?
Yes.
Does it require someone being able to learn how to damage? Yes
See example about ex girlfriend stabbing me repeatedly hard with an aluminum training to make sure she knew the areas and position and the intensity required.

I have also seen many who want a certificate so they can 'FEEL' safe. I was even told in a business class by an instructor that I could make money doing this.
I had to explain to him that it would work short term. And then one person gets hurt or runs their mouth and gets hurt and you get the reputation of not being any good and loose most of your clientele.

I have a couple of examples. One a niece in High School and another an associates daughter.
The firsts she wanted to learn to hit hard. So we exchanged shots until she could take a punch at about 50% from me and give back everything she had.
I young male cup her rear with his finger in the middle and S A'd her. She turned and hit him dead center of the chest. He went down with no breath and lost any chance hitting hard on his butt. Teacher said she was in trouble for fighting. And this is where she was smart and had listened to me. Her reply was on point: "You watched him S A me and you are going to punish me for self defense. I'll see you in the office. She went there. The teacher got into trouble The young male was expelled.
The Second was more technical training , with releases and strikes and locks and dirty boxing from FMA.
She graduated and was working as a social worker. She showed up to a client where the ex had just left from beating her. While she was there, he came back and tried to beat the one I knew. She released the grab and was able to cover enough to counter with a throat stab and heel kick to shin so he went back to the ground where she kicked him again, and then rolled him over and pinned him with a restraining lock that most police use.

I got calls from both of they after the incidents with thanks.

The point is Self Defense requires Violence. If you are not going to use avoidance. Once Avoidance refuses to work, then Violence is required.
If they are not able to execute the violence ( And many people cannot ) then they need to train to know that so that they will use avoidance.

Blocking works. When surprised or out of position and or looking to catch up on lost timing. Deflecting by some is not blocking.
Redirection is not a block to most.
Slipping and countering is definitely not a block.

Yet, the block will give many that chance to try to catch up.

.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Rule Number #1 - Avoidance
Rule Number #2 - See Rule Number #1.

What if you just can't avoid?

This short film can be a good example. You get on a bus. When bus arrive some remote area, few bad guys get on the bus. They rob the whole bus. At the end, they drag the female driver out of the bus and rape her. Nobody offers any help. When the female bus driver came back, she intentionally crashes the bus and kill everybody on that bus.

What if the female bus driver is your wife? Sometime, do nothing can get yourself killed too (as most passengers in that bus).

 

[Rich Parsons]

What if you just can't avoid?

This short film can be a good example. You get on a bus. When bus arrive some remote area, few bad guys get on the bus. They rob the whole bus. At the end, they drag the female driver out of the bus and rape her. Nobody offers any help. When the female bus driver came back, she intentionally crashes the bus and kill everybody on that bus.

What if the female bus driver is your wife? Sometime, do nothing can get yourself killed too (as most passengers in that bus).

See the point I made about Violence

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Rule Number #1 - Avoidance
Rule Number #2 - See Rule Number #1.

Avoid the bad parts of town.
Avoid being below half a tank of gas which could force one to stop in a not favorable location.
Avoid standing out.
Avoid going to places where alcohol is served
Avoid places with young males looking to prove something
Avoid engaging
Avoid getting hit. (Run, Block and Run. etc. )
Avoid getting hurt.
...

If one goes to bed early, and does not get up too early and avoids certain locations the chances of confrontation goes way down.
.
I get that.
I teach that.
.
I also have to write in the past a poster said people would never know what they would do.
I explained I was there and did stuff so I have an idea of how I would react.
Is it different based upon situations, and distances and everything else?
Yes it is. Everything in life is solving a differential equation and finding the area under the curve as one approaches zero or some other limit.
People do it all the time. If they didn't they couldn't use a fork for they would stab themselves in the face.
They couldn't drink from a glass as they would smash it into their face.

So taking it to absolute makes all discussions on the internet pointless. In my opinion.

In the past when a person who has made these comments about people not knowing until they have been there, I ask have they been there. Please provide examples.
Like have you been shot? Shot at? Long gun? Shot gun or rifle? Or pistol? Semi automatic or revolver?
Have you been stabbed? Cut?
Have you been hit by tazers or cattle prods.
Have you faced these weapons but not been injured because of luck? or because of verbal judo? or because of some skill set? Please explain.
.
Have you been hit by a car trying to run you over as a pedestrian?
Have you been attacked by swords and axes?
Have you been attacked by sticks, bats, golf clubs or other blunt items?

The list goes on and on.

All but being shot has occurred to me when I was younger. It helped pay for college.

The LEOs at this point usually reply that anyone that has that experience is a criminal or worked certain cities.

Your arguments almost seem to be reaching for the point of authority that no one can make a point of self defense because of your definition and if anyone does try they are wrong.

So, I am wrong. Ok Fine move on. Stop commenting. Let people discuss.

Or present examples as was asked. (* Sorry Drop Bear I did not give any real examples in my first post. I am in trouble for this myself. *)

Now can it be taught?
Yes.
Does it require someone being able to learn how to damage? Yes
See example about ex girlfriend stabbing me repeatedly hard with an aluminum training to make sure she knew the areas and position and the intensity required.

I have also seen many who want a certificate so they can 'FEEL' safe. I was even told in a business class by an instructor that I could make money doing this.
I had to explain to him that it would work short term. And then one person gets hurt or runs their mouth and gets hurt and you get the reputation of not being any good and loose most of your clientele.

I have a couple of examples. One a niece in High School and another an associates daughter.
The firsts she wanted to learn to hit hard. So we exchanged shots until she could take a punch at about 50% from me and give back everything she had.
I young male cup her rear with his finger in the middle and S A'd her. She turned and hit him dead center of the chest. He went down with no breath and lost any chance hitting hard on his butt. Teacher said she was in trouble for fighting. And this is where she was smart and had listened to me. Her reply was on point: "You watched him S A me and you are going to punish me for self defense. I'll see you in the office. She went there. The teacher got into trouble The young male was expelled.
The Second was more technical training , with releases and strikes and locks and dirty boxing from FMA.
She graduated and was working as a social worker. She showed up to a client where the ex had just left from beating her. While she was there, he came back and tried to beat the one I knew. She released the grab and was able to cover enough to counter with a throat stab and heel kick to shin so he went back to the ground where she kicked him again, and then rolled him over and pinned him with a restraining lock that most police use.

I got calls from both of they after the incidents with thanks.

The point is Self Defense requires Violence. If you are not going to use avoidance. Once Avoidance refuses to work, then Violence is required.
If they are not able to execute the violence ( And many people cannot ) then they need to train to know that so that they will use avoidance.

Blocking works. When surprised or out of position and or looking to catch up on lost timing. Deflecting by some is not blocking.
Redirection is not a block to most.
Slipping and countering is definitely not a block.

Yet, the block will give many that chance to try to catch up.

So I wanted to re read your post to get your point thoroughly. Let’s talk about one of my examples. Let’s put you in my old neighborhood walking, now you are on a sidewalk of a fairly busy street that can’t be safely Jay walked. As you are crossing a side street a pair or trio of dogs are running at you from a close distance and a couple guys are yelling at the dogs and following them. The dogs attack you and are actually biting and holding on. Now the two assumed owners arrive and are trying to help remove the dogs from you and in the meantime take your wallet and shoes and whatever else you have. You don’t have a gun so please tell me what your avoidance or violence plan is? You notice there are quite a few interested folks watching from their stoop or porch.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

See the point I made about Violence

I get your point in a one on one confrontational situation. That’s not necessarily a concern for a trained martial artist, and sport abilities certainly do apply here. My point is that in my experience the real problems arise when one doesn’t know what’s happening until too late, there are multiple assailants, or people that are actually planning to rob or assault, and are targeting. I don’t mean to imply that it’s hopeless, I’m just pointing out that there is no comparison in sport/ ring fighting to some of these scenarios. Which is why I chose the dog story, because I saw it done to unsuspecting people who were walking, thought they were being attacked by stray dogs, then were robbed and assaulted by the would be rescuers that owned the dogs. These criminals relied upon the chaos and confusion created by the dogs.

 

[drop bear]

In sports fighting there is a concept called.

Win your entry.

Win your exit.

And it is designed to make you aware that you are trying to stack the deck in your favor before the fight and as you try to leave.

I am a postman. So I get attacked by dogs a lot. I mitigate this by winning my entry and exit.

So before there is a dog. I will look around and make sure if I am ambushed by a dog I have somewhere to go.

If. By the time I am caught by dogs and getting robbed by gangsters. There is another sports strategy.

You messed up a long time ago.

And they will get my money and my shoes. And I will chalk that up to a life lesson .