Street Fighting as a martial art why?

Shotokan_Tiger_2020

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Diego from DOA 6
Miguel from Tekken 7
Shizuma Kusunagi from the manga Samurai Girl: Real Bout High School

There are probably many other examples of street fighting in anime/manga, video games and movies, but my question is this:
Why are the they trying to depict street fighting as a martial art?

You don't have a master like Ip Man, Robert Fusaro or even fictional ones like Mister Miyagi when it comes to teaching street fighting.
Plus, isn't there dirty fighting involved? Like groin shots, eye gouging, hitting a women's breasts, or even the use of weapons like brass knuckles or butterfly knives?

I don't get what the appeal is about street fighting.
 

Dirty Dog

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Diego from DOA 6
Miguel from Tekken 7
Shizuma Kusunagi from the manga Samurai Girl: Real Bout High School

There are probably many other examples of street fighting in anime/manga, video games and movies, but my question is this:
Why are the they trying to depict street fighting as a martial art?

You don't have a master like Ip Man, Robert Fusaro or even fictional ones like Mister Miyagi when it comes to teaching street fighting.
Plus, isn't there dirty fighting involved? Like groin shots, eye gouging, hitting a women's breasts, or even the use of weapons like brass knuckles or butterfly knives?

I don't get what the appeal is about street fighting.
They're not showing street fighting as a martial art. They're showing martial arts used in a street fight.
Pretty much every martial art teaches what you're calling "dirty fighting". Fair fights are for tournaments.
 

punisher73

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If you go back far enough, that is all martial arts are street fighting. They are just systematized "street fighting". Once upon a time, someone got into a fight and did something that worked really well for them, they passed on that knowledge with other like minded individuals and put their collective knowledge together. At some point, they put katas together to help them remember everything and pass it on to others.

Patrick McCarthy was one of the first to talk about the fact that karate specifically was designed as a "civilian self-defense system". That meant it wasn't designed to be used by soldier on the battlefield or against opponents in a sporting contest. Karate looked at the most common "Habitual Acts of Violence" (McCarthy's term) and taught solutions to those.

You also had guys like Choki Motobu who DID teach karate for street fighting and used to go to the Okinawan red light district and pick fights quite often to try out his karate. You had arts like Kajukenbo and Hawaiian Ken/mpo that were also taught for street fighting 9and many others as well). All of the "self-development" stuff came much later in the evolution of karate.

I can't speak to the history of all martial arts since there are so many. But, a good many of them started as good ole fashioned street fighting systems that got fancier as time moved on.
 

isshinryuronin

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If you go back far enough, that is all martial arts are street fighting. They are just systematized "street fighting". Once upon a time, someone got into a fight and did something that worked really well for them, they passed on that knowledge with other like minded individuals and put their collective knowledge together. At some point, they put katas together to help them remember everything and pass it on to others.

Patrick McCarthy was one of the first to talk about the fact that karate specifically was designed as a "civilian self-defense system". That meant it wasn't designed to be used by soldier on the battlefield or against opponents in a sporting contest. Karate looked at the most common "Habitual Acts of Violence" (McCarthy's term) and taught solutions to those.

You also had guys like Choki Motobu who DID teach karate for street fighting and used to go to the Okinawan red light district and pick fights quite often to try out his karate. You had arts like Kajukenbo and Hawaiian Ken/mpo that were also taught for street fighting 9and many others as well). All of the "self-development" stuff came much later in the evolution of karate.

I can't speak to the history of all martial arts since there are so many. But, a good many of them started as good ole fashioned street fighting systems that got fancier as time moved on.
Good post. McCarthy's theory of HAPV (habitual acts of personal violence) seems to be a good interpretation of the advent of karate - more logical and simpler than some of the more fantastical ideas I've seen proposed. You set up the basic framework rather well. Understanding some of these ideas is important in understanding karate as a whole.

A couple of points, however, we have slight disagreement. Concerning the way you phrased Motobu "teaching karate for street fighting" - I agree he sought out and fought street fighters (with little mercy). He was a roughneck, not adverse to a bottle or two of sake on a regular basis, and maybe even an a**hole. Certainly, he did not fit the stereotype of the gentle and wise karate master.

But I believe he did not "street fight" for its own sake, but rather as part of his serious study of his art, and taught the art to his students not to be brawlers, but effective martial artists. I think this due to Nagamine Soshin' s praise for him. Nagamine (who referred to Motobu as "Master" and was the founder of Matsubayashi Shorinryu) was the police chief (***'t chief?) of Naha in Okinawa, and later a high (mayor?) city official. He was also a devout Zen Buddhist, so he seemed to have recognized some higher qualities in Motobu beyond street fighting. Not that you meant to demean Motobu in any way, I just wanted to round out the picture of him a little.

The second point is about "all the 'self-development' stuff coming much later in the evolution of karate." You're right in that much of it did (including a fair amount of BS), but some moral and philosophical aspects were integrated into the art earlier on as well and had some influence on the way the art was passed down.
 

drop bear

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Because it makes you appear like a fighter without ever having to have put in the work.
 

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Martial D

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Diego from DOA 6
Miguel from Tekken 7
Shizuma Kusunagi from the manga Samurai Girl: Real Bout High School

There are probably many other examples of street fighting in anime/manga, video games and movies, but my question is this:
Why are the they trying to depict street fighting as a martial art?

You don't have a master like Ip Man, Robert Fusaro or even fictional ones like Mister Miyagi when it comes to teaching street fighting.
Plus, isn't there dirty fighting involved? Like groin shots, eye gouging, hitting a women's breasts, or even the use of weapons like brass knuckles or butterfly knives?

I don't get what the appeal is about street fighting.
Tank Abbott from early UFC.
 

donald1

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Brass knuckles? Not I'm any martial arts I'm familiar with... although there is tekko...

karate-weapon-tekko.jpg



Like dirty dog said. Fair fighting is for tournaments. Plenty of martial arts use eye gouges, groin strikes and stuff in traditional martial arts.

People who like street fighting do so for the same reason people like acting tough and fighting in general?
 

drop bear

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Brass knuckles? Not I'm any martial arts I'm familiar with... although there is tekko...

karate-weapon-tekko.jpg



Like dirty dog said. Fair fighting is for tournaments. Plenty of martial arts use eye gouges, groin strikes and stuff in traditional martial arts.

People who like street fighting do so for the same reason people like acting tough and fighting in general?

Instant gratification.
 

drop bear

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Brass knuckles? Not I'm any martial arts I'm familiar with... although there is tekko...

karate-weapon-tekko.jpg



Like dirty dog said. Fair fighting is for tournaments. Plenty of martial arts use eye gouges, groin strikes and stuff in traditional martial arts.

People who like street fighting do so for the same reason people like acting tough and fighting in general?
 

Alan0354

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MA should be about the art of kicking butt, forget all the useless fancy movement. I've seen so many movement in Kung Fu that have absolutely no use in real fight. If people want fancy and artistic movement, learn dancing.

Remember the very early days of UFC ( like UFC 1, 2, 3.......)? There were very few rules( for real). You see people of all different styles went into the Octagon, you very quickly see what works and what doesn't.

I learn Wing Chun before, in what world the sticky hands work outside of sparing amount themselves under their own rules? They spent so much time on that and on the wooden dummy. Don't take my word, go on youtube and see for yourself.

To be fair, there are stuffs in Wing Chun that is very practical, I am sure other styles are like this. I keep the Wing Chun punching with the regular boxing punching. Also the step kick to step on the knee of the opponent is very useful. I think MMA incorporate this into the style also. MMA definitely take in all the Tae Kwon Do kicks.

Too bad UFC now has so many rules, I am pretty sure without all the rules, the grappling won't work as well inside the octagon. Like if you can strike the back of the head and knee while the person is down. I think the rules are really unfair to the strikers.
 
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isshinryuronin

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I've seen so many movement in Kung Fu that have absolutely no use in real fight.
There is some truth in this, but perhaps some of those movements just seem useless because the application is not properly understood. There may be more to them than you think.
in what world the sticky hands work outside of sparing
Often, sticky hands (kakie in Okinawan) is used as an abstract sensitivity exercise that might be done also at a corporate team building retreat. But it has great application to fighting. Being in contact with the opponent's arm allows you to detect his motion instantly, and determine its strength and direction. Staying in contact with the arm also lets you maintain control of it. This and knowing where his arm is at all times is of utmost importance in fighting.
Too bad UFC now has so many rules
The old days of MMA was much different than modern UFC. Hardly any rules, hardly any conditioning, hardly any trained skills, but lots of rock'em sock'em cheap thrills. Those early guy were certainly tough and gutsy, but one could hardly call them "elite" fighters.

To grow the sport, it needed to attract superior talent, dedicated professionals with highly developed skill, conditioning, training and...brains. These kind of guys were not going to waste themselves in a brawl or war of attrition.

By incorporating more rules that tended to reward real skill, the sport encouraged top fighters and the training of top fighters to reach a higher level. Fans appreciated seeing two skilled fighters face off more than watching two guys try to club each other into submission. These fans were willing to pay to watch excellence, bringing in HUGE revenue. And that's the bottom line.
 

JowGaWolf

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There is some truth in this, but perhaps some of those movements just seem useless because the application is not properly understood. There may be more to them than you think.
It's more that they seem useless because the applications is not properly understood. Take a valid martial arts system and you'll find out that this is 90% of the issue when someone says that "something is useless."

To see this. Get together with some martial artists and have them try to apply a technique. You'll get some really wild stuff, even from people who you would think would understand. I often bite my tongue on some things even with Jow Ga because a more experienced Jow Ga practitioner has shown the application of a technique incorrectly. This often is a result of not actually using the techniques against people in other systems.

A technique may also be designed to work against a specific fighting system. There's things in Jow Ga that I would easily do against a Wing Chun fighter that I wouldn't try to do against a boxer. It's that type of understanding that all techniques, aren't designed for all types of fighters.

The most basic and common misunderstanding that we often see is when Strikers try to strike someone who is trying to wrap up their legs or get under their punch. What's that saying "you must know yourself, and know your enemy" yep it's important. Not every technique is a "One Size Fits All"
 

Alan0354

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I'll let some supposedly famous Wing Chun master do the demo. I don't want to pretend to be the expert. Just tell me where is the sticky hands? You'll find a lot more of these fights on youtube. The one on tv even commented about the guy demo on tv on wooden dummy and all that.

I am not singling out Wing Chun, I talk more about it because I learn this before. I spent the most time in Tae Kwon Do, I am so glad I found the school in the 80s that didn't do traditional Tae Kwon Do. We stand up and fight/sparing like kick boxing. We learned boxing hands instead of the useless traditional big horse stand and punch from the side of the body. My instructor was strongly influenced by Bruce Lee at the time( 1984 and way before UFC).




Please note these are not fighting against MMA and not under MMA rules. It would be done and over with even faster if it allow real grappling instead of being broken up as soon as it's on the ground.

BTW, there is no rule against any style MA people to get into the Octagon, you just have to be able to win. I am sure they will welcome people of any other MA style to get a try in the Octagon. Good thing about this is you can talk and talk, only thing matters is show and tell. So far, it's telling very loud.

Too bad I am too old to learn MMA, I still practice on heavy bags on kick boxing every week. I won't even call it MA, I just call it aerobic exercise. Believe me, I am bitter about it that I don't stand a chance with the modern MMA style and too old to do anything about it. I am only here on the forum because I just picked up stick fighting using a walking cane. A cane is the biggest equalizer against people that knows grappling(that I don't know). I am at the age that it won't look funny to go out with a cane, Or else, I won't even want to join any of the forums. What's to talk about?
 
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Hanzou

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I'll let some supposedly famous Wing Chun master do the demo. I don't want to pretend to be the expert. Just tell me where is the sticky hands? You'll find a lot more of these fights on youtube. The one on tv even commented about the guy demo on tv on wooden dummy and all that.

I am not singling out Wing Chun, I talk more about it because I learn this before. I spent the most time in Tae Kwon Do, I am so glad I found the school in the 80s that didn't do traditional Tae Kwon Do. We stand up and fight/sparing like kick boxing. We learned boxing hands instead of the useless traditional big horse stand and punch from the side of the body. My instructor was strongly influenced by Bruce Lee at the time( 1984 and way before UFC).




Please note these are not fighting against MMA and not under MMA rules. It would be done and over with even faster if it allow real grappling instead of being broken up as soon as it's on the ground.

BTW, there is no rule against any style MA people to get into the Octagon, you just have to be able to win. I am sure they will welcome people of any other MA style to get a try in the Octagon. Good thing about this is you can talk and talk, only thing matters is show and tell. So far, it's telling very loud.

Too bad I am too old to learn MMA, I still practice on heavy bags on kick boxing every week. I won't even call it MA, I just call it aerobic exercise. Believe me, I am bitter about it that I don't stand a chance with the modern MMA style and too old to do anything about it. I am only here on the forum because I just picked up stick fighting using a walking cane. A cane is the biggest equalizer against people that knows grappling(that I don't know). I am at the age that it won't look funny to go out with a cane, Or else, I won't even want to join any of the forums. What's to talk about?

That middle video is simply embarrassing.
 

Alan0354

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That middle video is simply embarrassing.
I was from Hong Kong before, I met enough of those so called masters. All the BS. I was still in Hong Kong when Bruce Lee died. All those "masters" started saying they can beat Bruce Lee.....after he's dead. When Bruce Lee was alive, they were all quiet as mouse. Did Bruce Lee kicked the butt of a lot of those "masters".

I heard there's a standing offer of $20,000 to anyone that can beat Xu Ziaodong in China. He is still loud mouth and still kicking far as I know. Don't worry, if anyone can beat him, it would be all over youtube.

The first video I posted is even worst to me. The guy beat the Wing Chun with one hand behind his back. That was not even MMA, it was boxing. He did not even kick, just one hand boxing. Those are famous masters in China, the one in the middle was interviewed on tv!!!

Funny I heard those "masters" saying something like this: " I don't want to show because it's too deadly to use the technique"!!! OR "I don't want to show because people might steal it!!!".

Check out Xu Ziaodong in youtube:

Like I said, talk is cheap. There are UFC club around, people think they are that good can go try it out. We have a UFC gym within a mile. My wife actually go to that gym for workout ( not fighting) with weights and cardio machines. It's too painful for me to go to see. I workout at home!!!
 
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JowGaWolf

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I'll let some supposedly famous Wing Chun master do the demo. I don't want to pretend to be the expert. Just tell me where is the sticky hands?
First if you really want to know what a technique does then you need to start looking at quality. Just my 2 cents, but I think that's the best path. If you want to stay ignorant of how sticky hands applies then keep looking towards those who are least likely to show you. I'm saying not as a wing chun practioner but as a kung fu practioner as "Sticky hands" doesn't only apply to Wing Chun.

I have personally used it in free sparring.
 

Alan0354

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First if you really want to know what a technique does then you need to start looking at quality. Just my 2 cents, but I think that's the best path. If you want to stay ignorant of how sticky hands applies then keep looking towards those who are least likely to show you. I'm saying not as a wing chun practioner but as a kung fu practioner as "Sticky hands" doesn't only apply to Wing Chun.

I have personally used it in free sparring.
As I said, those in the videos are supposedly the best in Wing Chun already, how do they use their sticky hands to safe them from total humiliation?

I don't know your sticky hands, I can only speak about Wing Chun that I learn before.
 
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