Street Fighting as a martial art why?

JowGaWolf

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As I said, those in the videos are supposedly the best in Wing Chun already
But they aren't the best in WC and that's the entire point of the MMA vs Kung Fu mess. He wasn't trying to fight against legitimate Wing Chun fighters and even stated himself that his focus was on exposing the fakes. So even after you see that the WC fighter isn't that good, you are still trying to learn and see sticky hands from that person. Why?

Find someone who knows how to actually use the technique and learn from them.

Just because someone says they are "the best" doesn't mean that they are. If you can't understand this, then the first thing I would focus on is learning how to find those who actually know how to use the techniques. Once you find someone who knows how to use it then learn from that. Don't trying to learn and see stuff from people who claim they are the best.

I know tons of people who don't claim to be the best but know how to use the principle of sticky hands. Concept is really easy. When you are within close range "grappling range" make sure your arms and hands stay connected to your opponents arms to interfere with their punching and grappling techniques. You do this with the goal of opening opportunities for yourself, while denying your opponent the same opportunities. This is done in close range. If you are throwing punches long range then you won't be able to use it, because it's not the range in which it is used.

Hopefully this will help you understand it. However, if all you want to do is try to learn from that video that you posted, then I can't help you there as you will not learn anything from that, be it Wing Chun or MMA.
 

Alan0354

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Those people were either famous enough to be invited on tv like the second video, or famous enough so people willing to pay to see the fight. They are not nobody.

I learn Wing Chun long time ago when I was in Hong Kong, so I know what is sticky hands.

If it works so well and effectively, I hope they put it on youtube fighting other styles like Muythai, MMA etc. and kick their butt.

I learn Tae kwon Do in more modern style like kick boxing in the later years.
 
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JowGaWolf

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As I said, those in the videos are supposedly the best in Wing Chun already, how do they use their sticky hands to safe them from total humiliation?

I don't know your sticky hands, I can only speak about Wing Chun that I learn before.
I wouldn't worry about what they do since it's clear they lack a lot of fighting basics. Focus on your own goals and wipe the frauds from your memory as you cannot gain anything positive for your Goals. When it comes to applications of martial arts, sparring is a must, anyone who doesn't do a lot of is not going to be good with using it.

I took screenshot of a sparring exercise that I created. You can see how our arms are stay connected. The game creates a small space to fight in. The goal is simple. All you have to do is punch, kick, trip, push, your opponent out of the ring. You can also score by take down as well. The small distance makes it difficult to set up one strategy, and you'll find yourself shifting through various techniques very quickly.

I believe this is the reality of "sticky hands." What you see is my opponent controlling my arms to prevent me from squaring off and hitting him or pushing him. "Sticky hands" is grappling done with the option of striking. When it's done you want to keep contact because that's the easier way to interfere with punches and take downs and to prevent them from going full speed. Sort of like how a boxer will grab the arms of his opponent to keep his opponent from being able to reload the punch. During the screen shots below our arms never lost contact with each other hence the term."sticky hands"

Below my opponent controls my my left arm. I control his left arm.
1624327697706.png


Same thing here.
1624327477370.png


Below you can see the same thing here. This time he gets his arm free. Now I only have one contact. If he forces my arm down then he can punch me hard in the face.
1624329141547.png


You can see him do just that. This is a bad position for me to be in. But instead of fighting directly against his downward pull, I want to push where there is the least resistance. So I keep contact with my right hand in case if I have to push his arm in front of his own punch. I move my left hand under his arm because that's the hand that I really want to use to push with as it will free up my rear punch.
1624329494305.png


once I get my left hand under his arm. I can now easily move it. He was strongest when he could push down. Now that option is gone. Keep in mind that all through this our arms have stayed in contact. Now his punch cannot reach me but my punch can reach him.
1624329849336.png


Here I lad the punch. His rear hand stays in almost the same position as I controlled his lead arm. Here you can clearly see I had more than enough range to really hit him hard if I desired.
1624330109484.png


After the punch lands, I move back into the Sticky Arms but this time I screwed up and moved his arm in the wrong direction. I ended up swinging this arm open which opened up a big path for him to throw his rear punch. I won't show that part lol. I should have moved my arm to his elbow so that he would be forced to punch across his body again.

1624330461494.png


This is what I think sticky hands true nature is. The sensitivity stuff helps you to detect small changes in direction and resistance.
 

JowGaWolf

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As I said, those in the videos are supposedly the best in Wing Chun already, how do they use their sticky hands to safe them from total humiliation?

I don't know your sticky hands, I can only speak about Wing Chun that I learn before.
I don't believe in this as the explanation for sticky hands. Fighting isn't that complicated.

I'm believe the same as some of this, but to me sensitivity isn't about the straight light or the most direct path. It applies to a much larger range of things that is more free flowing. For example, I train a circular system. So how will Wing Chun apply sensitivity beyond a straight path. The problem here is that Everything is explained in the context of Fighting System A vs Fighting System A.

If you only learn and understand sticky hand concepts only when dealing with Wing Chun vs Wing Chun then you will lose every fight that isn't Wing Chun. You have to learn how to apply Wing Chun concepts against non-Wing Chun systems. If you don't understand it that way then you will lose every fight outside of Wing Chun.

Every Wing Chun technique I've seen explained on video was explained as if it's Wing Chun vs Wing Chun.
 

JowGaWolf

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If it works so well and effectively, I hope they put it on youtube fighting other styles like Muythai, MMA etc. and kick their butt.
Here's something to think about.

Sticky hand/arm concept in Muay Thai

Boxing Sticky hands

Wrestling Sticky hands

Wing Chun Sticky hands

The problem with all of these is that it's System A vs System A. One of the ways to be successful is to make your opponent to try to fight like you. That way it's more like System A vs System A.

If you cannot make your opponent fight like you. then you will need to know how to apply Sticky hands against other systems. This is the best way to be successful. BJJ is successful because of this. They learn to apply it against other systems. But once they get you on the ground then they force you to fight like they fight. That's the best of both worlds. But it doesn't always work like that.
 
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Shotokan_Tiger_2020

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If you go back far enough, that is all martial arts are street fighting. They are just systematized "street fighting". Once upon a time, someone got into a fight and did something that worked really well for them, they passed on that knowledge with other like minded individuals and put their collective knowledge together. At some point, they put katas together to help them remember everything and pass it on to others.

Patrick McCarthy was one of the first to talk about the fact that karate specifically was designed as a "civilian self-defense system". That meant it wasn't designed to be used by soldier on the battlefield or against opponents in a sporting contest. Karate looked at the most common "Habitual Acts of Violence" (McCarthy's term) and taught solutions to those.

You also had guys like Choki Motobu who DID teach karate for street fighting and used to go to the Okinawan red light district and pick fights quite often to try out his karate. You had arts like Kajukenbo and Hawaiian Ken/mpo that were also taught for street fighting 9and many others as well). All of the "self-development" stuff came much later in the evolution of karate.

I can't speak to the history of all martial arts since there are so many. But, a good many of them started as good ole fashioned street fighting systems that got fancier as time moved on.
Would Savate count? I thought it started out as street fighting too.
 

punisher73

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Would Savate count? I thought it started out as street fighting too.

I don't know enough about the history of Savate to say, I only spoke on the styles I have a bit more experience with. But, like I said almost all of them started out originally as "street fighting". So, it probably does fit the bill.
 

LoneWolfPrince253

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I do know how to use some Street Fighter video game moves that are possible; but in my opinion for the style? Please leave them in video games, for they meant to be fun in the game and not wise in real life.
 

punisher73

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Some food for thought on how "chi sao" should look after it has been trained for application. As in many cases, chi sao/sticky hands are a "drill" that is used as by many as an "application" and no work has been to bridge the lessons of the drill to make it work as an application.
 
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Shotokan_Tiger_2020

Shotokan_Tiger_2020

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I do know how to use some Street Fighter video game moves that are possible; but in my opinion for the style? Please leave them in video games, for they meant to be fun in the game and not wise in real life.
Thank you for pointing that out.

I merely condemning the use of street fighting in real life, not in fiction.

I only reference fiction because some people in real life might get the idea that street fighting in real life would be "cool".
 

hunschuld

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I have not read every post so perhaps this has already been pointed out. I did not see one video that was actual wing chun. Wing chun is not about hand shapes or chain punching. Wing Chun is a combat method that is performed a certain way.

Wing Chun has Kuen Kuit or fist sayings that describe the essence of Wing Chun. The goal is to get close and stay close. I used to tell students you want to be so close you are wearing the same shirt. So 1 you receive what comes. You do not move away from incoming energy you accept and stick to it 2. Follow what goes. If energy moves away you follow it back to the person ,maintain close range and get closer. 3 continuous attack while changing angles. This is misinterpreted as continuous chain punching. . 4 use your footwork to press. 5 Control your opponents center of gravity. There are several others as well
If you don't see these elements in a fighting video you are not seeing a person that knows wing chun just someone that learned forms and shapes.
 

Blindside

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I have not read every post so perhaps this has already been pointed out. I did not see one video that was actual wing chun. Wing chun is not about hand shapes or chain punching. Wing Chun is a combat method that is performed a certain way.

Wing Chun has Kuen Kuit or fist sayings that describe the essence of Wing Chun. The goal is to get close and stay close. I used to tell students you want to be so close you are wearing the same shirt. So 1 you receive what comes. You do not move away from incoming energy you accept and stick to it 2. Follow what goes. If energy moves away you follow it back to the person ,maintain close range and get closer. 3 continuous attack while changing angles. This is misinterpreted as continuous chain punching. . 4 use your footwork to press. 5 Control your opponents center of gravity. There are several others as well
If you don't see these elements in a fighting video you are not seeing a person that knows wing chun just someone that learned forms and shapes.

If the training method can't produce fighters who can apply the system then the training method is flawed. Nobody is going to argue the pushed down someone's arm with one hand and punching them with the other is ineffective. 2+2=4. But if you test a school and the students are giving you 2+2=3 or 5 and sometimes 6, there is something wrong with the instruction. And if this error seems to be repeated across multiple schools then you should start questioning the curriculum and teaching methods.
 

Alan0354

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Like I said before, martial arts is an art of kicking butt, you want grace, artistic and fancy, learn ballet or jazz dance.

Talk is cheap, UFC welcome any style, I am sure most of the MA are doing way within the rules. Have something people consider is a winner, PROOF it in the Octagon. Make it to the Pay-Per-View tv, then you can talk.
 
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kfman

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MA should be about the art of kicking butt, forget all the useless fancy movement. I've seen so many movement in Kung Fu that have absolutely no use in real fight. If people want fancy and artistic movement, learn dancing.

Remember the very early days of UFC ( like UFC 1, 2, 3.......)? There were very few rules( for real). You see people of all different styles went into the Octagon, you very quickly see what works and what doesn't.

I learn Wing Chun before, in what world the sticky hands work outside of sparing amount themselves under their own rules? They spent so much time on that and on the wooden dummy. Don't take my word, go on youtube and see for yourself.

To be fair, there are stuffs in Wing Chun that is very practical, I am sure other styles are like this. I keep the Wing Chun punching with the regular boxing punching. Also the step kick to step on the knee of the opponent is very useful. I think MMA incorporate this into the style also. MMA definitely take in all the Tae Kwon Do kicks.

Too bad UFC now has so many rules, I am pretty sure without all the rules, the grappling won't work as well inside the octagon. Like if you can strike the back of the head and knee while the person is down. I think the rules are really unfair to the strikers.
I agree that modern kung/wushu does have many useless movements for a fight. But many traditional kung fu styles, like the Five Family Style which I teach, are geared to street fights if the movements are fully understood and applied.
 

Alan0354

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I agree that modern kung/wushu does have many useless movements for a fight. But many traditional kung fu styles, like the Five Family Style which I teach, are geared to street fights if the movements are fully understood and applied.
I only learn Wing Chun for a little while, my main time was in Tae Kwon All my posts in this thread is mainly on Wing Chun sticky hands, NOT other style sticky hands. I can only speak for what I know. I don't find Wing Chun sticky hands useful in real fight at all.

It's good to have MA that really concentrate on real fights. I take your word on that.

UFC MMA is the closest I know of so far, not perfect, but relatively closer. I am too old to learn now, barely can keep up with the exercise routine I have.
 

drop bear

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Some food for thought on how "chi sao" should look after it has been trained for application. As in many cases, chi sao/sticky hands are a "drill" that is used as by many as an "application" and no work has been to bridge the lessons of the drill to make it work as an application.

Tony Ferguson gets used as practical application as well.
 
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