Stick techniques

[Don Roley]

A thread on thoughts of using an ASP baton in the Bujinkan style.

 

[Airyu@hotmail.com]

Hello Mr. Roley,

The ASP or various collapasable batons fits very nicely with the Budo curriculum, but I disagree with the premise that by combining your current practice with FMA you may have a disjointed protection system. Many techniques from the Filipino arts are similar to Japanese arts. There was a good deal of cross cultural information excahnge in the Southeast asian arts, and Japan also had an influence as well.

At this year's Sayoc Kali Sama Sama event, Tuhon Tom Kier introduce stick grappling. It was implemented using a 3 ft stick or 28 - 31 in baton as well. What was interesting were the similarities to traditional hanbo techniques taught in the Bujinkan. Many of the techniques can be implemented with the ASP as well, and are well suited for "real world" use.

Train Hard it is the Way!

Steve Lefebvre, Airyu

www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[Don Roley]

I disagree with the premise that by combining your current practice with FMA you may have a disjointed protection system.

(snip some stuff that is not historicially verifiable)

At this year's Sayoc Kali Sama Sama event, Tuhon Tom Kier introduce stick grappling. It was implemented using a 3 ft stick or 28 - 31 in baton as well. What was interesting were the similarities to traditional hanbo techniques taught in the Bujinkan.

Thank you for your opinion.

It has been my experience that many martial arts have a superficial resemblence to other martial arts. After all, some people say that jujutsu is another form of karate. Anyone who has spent time with both arts will have a different opinion.

In the same way, even though FMA and Bujinkan have some superficial similar moves, my experience has been that there are fundemental differences in the way they evolved and the situations they were created for that make the core of each very, very different. There are similar moves, but the central core and philosophy of each are completely different.

Since I do not want to run more than one operating system on my body's hard dirve, I wish to keep the central core and philosophy of Bujinkan training and merely pick up those things that do not clash on the most basic level with that system. I have seen people try to pick up and choose without a deep level of knowledge and it does not impress me.

 

[clayton]

as much as im hitting myself for this one,,,,,,,,, i have to agree with ralph on this one. i have done some weird things, good and bad. granted i wont talk about them online, but if i did theres no way to back it up. theres no way to back stuff like this up, period. and its silly to argue over it. if you've been mugged or have mugged someone thats expierence on your side. but unless things went worng and you went to the hospitol or had to share a toilet with 10 other dudes then you cannot verify anything. i can see a definate difference in peoples training that have seen bad **** to people that have trained with "operators" but never had to back anything up. or if they did it hasen't been dont many times over. there's a feeling that just isnt there.

 

[Don Roley]

but unless things went worng and you went to the hospitol or had to share a toilet with 10 other dudes then you cannot verify anything.

Yes you can. If you talk to the police there will be a police report and you should always talk to the police after a violent incident, especially if there is a weapon involved.

I have a healthy respect for the legal system in America. I fear it. I fear a criminal coming at me with a slimy lawyer almost more than I fear him coming at me with a knife.

Now, let me say that I have pulled weapons on people and forced them to flee and never reported it to the police. I doubt the police would be able to find the guy that fled and they would be more interested in why I was running around with a weapon.

But if you use a weapon on another person, you need to cover your tail. There is a simple reason.

Criminals are scum.

"Well, no duh," a lot of you are saying. But a lot of people seem to be under the impression that a guy that tries to use violence on you will somehow consider lying and using the legal system to get you not honorable enough. WTF?

If someone comes into your place of work and causes trouble, the first thing you need to do is call the police and have them take care of the guy. If trouble breaks out before they arrive, you have it on record that you wanted the police to be there. If there is any violence, you need to get to the police as soon as you can and make a report. This goes double if there is a weapon involved. If you only brandish it on the street and the thug flees, you may be able to not call the police. But if you merely show it to someone in your store/ business and maybe your car, you need to call the police ASAP.

Otherwise, the other guy may just go to the hospital and get documentation for his injuries and then call the cops and give HIS lying story. He might get a few of his friends to conribute. They will probably say that something like they walked into your work and made some comment related to them being Muslim or something and YOU attacked them 'cause you don't like Muslims.

So the police show up at your work/ home and ask to see you. They search the place and find the weapon exactly as the thug said they would. So, they have a one person who has gone to the police and another that seems to be trying to hide the fact. How does that look? Add onto that any injuries the guy has documented and you are in deep, deep trouble.

You may never be charged with a criminal offence, but you may be sued in civil court. Oh yeah- it has happened. There is a police report, injuries documented, etc. Grab a lawyer and try to get as much cash out of the guy who dared stand up to you as you can.

Anyone have trouble believing this can happen in today's America?

I know guys who have had one incident without a police report. I have also known guys who were scum and preyed on other scum when they were young and there was no going to the police. If someone is injured trying to rip off a drug dealer, there may be hospital records but no one is telling the cops.

But the criminals have criminal records of one sort or another. And the more you play the ods, the more likely the police are going to be involved. Anyone without a criminal record needs to show proof in the form of police reports. Also, I would look weirdly on someone who claims multiple encounters with things like shurikens, swords, etc and refuses to back it up just becasue it is so weird sounding. A good general rule of thumb is that if someone claims to have a vast experience with street fights ask to see the lawyer they have on retainer. Because in America if you have to deal with serious violence you are going to be dealing with the legal system and you need a good lawyer for that.

 

[r.severe]

Yes you can. If you talk to the police there will be a police report and you should always talk to the police after a violent incident, especially if there is a weapon involved.


Clayton,
People are really strange aren't they..
Hey... some of us live in reality.. some do not.
I'm not sure where this person lives... who ever they seem to be on a forum... who knows in reality...
But from where I'm from.. Mississippi, Tenn and Texico you don't run down to the office at school after you beat someone up.. or take a trip to be put in jail after a fight..
What kind of strange deal would that be?
I wouldn't take that deal.. would you Clayton?

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Gentlemen....

Please stick to the technical/historical/etc and leave the personal shots off this site.

Considering this thread is about Sticks...I'd hate to have to reach for one. I'd guess that tanning some bottoms might be an interesting exercize in technique, hmm?

Thank you.

 

[Shogun]

you don't run down to the office at school after you beat someone up.. or take a trip to be put in jail after a fight..
What kind of strange deal would that be?
I wouldn't take that deal.. would you Clayton?

I would. just kidding.



I hate to get into this, but That is a very good point Mr. Severe.

 

[clayton]

i torn between two worlds. so i would have to say it would depend on what the outcome of the situation was. if theres no witnesses and nothing lethal happened(and no camera's) then i might walk on my merry way. but if something serious happened, then you would have to look at the reprocussions of what could happen if the mugger painted a different story at the hospitol. if something did go bad then i would cover my a$$ and alert the authorities. this is my present mode of thinking. and its not how i used to think.

now in my youth, this never happened, the last thing i ever thought about was going to the police for anything. i got jumped by 4 guys one time and got pummeled, i just went home. and theres the flip side that isn't cool to talk about online too. but in no situation was the police ever considered. only once did i advise a friend that he needs to turn himself in, but that was under the worst possible events.

 

[Don Roley]

if something did go bad then i would cover my a$$ and alert the authorities. this is my present mode of thinking. and its not how i used to think.

now in my youth, this never happened, the last thing i ever thought about was going to the police for anything. i got jumped by 4 guys one time and got pummeled, i just went home. and theres the flip side that isn't cool to talk about online too.

Important points. When dealing with weapons, you deal with a different legal reality than the fist fights we got into as children. For a start, you should read this page on the legal realities of using violence- especially when using a weapon. There is a link to Ayoob's use of lethal force web page. That is something worth checking out as well.

When you encounter serious violence it is not something to brag about. Your troubles only begin after the last blow is thrown. I have never been arrested charged or spent time in jail, but I have been detained, questioned and fingerprinted because I defended myself. Eventually, I had to get a lawyer to represent me- even though everyone knew I was not guilty of anything. One of the first things a lawyer will tell you is that you do not talk about the case to anyone. Considering just how bad real violence makes you feel, it is not something you want to talk about anyways.

My advice is that if you have to use a weapon, you have to get a lawyer. Finding out about the legal system AFTER you have used a weapon to defend yourself is a big mistake. Research the matter ahead of time. And you better hope to God you really were in the right when the violence went down. If not, you better do your best job of keeping a low profile that you can and try not to call attention to yourself.