Stick attack - take it on the bone or the meat?

[punisher73]

I think that some terms need to be clarified as to "outside and inside". The forearm basically has 4 surfaces that can be used to stop an attack in the martial arts, but only 3 are taught in the traditional blocks.

Assuming your arm is just hanging naturally and not rotating the hand.

1) Elbow to pinky side: Relies on the ulna bone, which is the smaller and weaker of the two forearm bones
2) Elbow to thumb side: Relies on the radius bone, which is the larger of the two forearm bones, but nerves are VERY exposed there
3) Elbow to palm: meaty part of the forearm, where the most blood vessels are located at
4) Elbow to back of hand: meaty part of forearm, where there is the most muscle and both forearm bones are strongest.

So, in the scenario given. I would at least attempt an Isshin-Ryu type muscle block using the most muscle and bone strength biomechanically possible. I would also try to get it closer to the elbow where there is more muscle protecting the bone. But, like Mr. Lawson said it's all gonna suck. Really your only course of action is to pick "how" you want to get hurt, and then attempt to do something to mitigate the damage.

 

[lklawson]

Thanks for the response Kirk.

What about a heavy wooden object, does this change your response?

Like a hickory axe handle, for instance? Nope. Same deal

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[arnisador]

Thank you arnisador for your response!

If you don't mind could you please elaborate. If I understand you clearly it seems you are casting our first vote for taking the hit on the muscle and not the bone...? If this is so can you explain why and any training or experience as to how you came to this idea?

As a stickfighter, if I intend to hit you with a heavy stick then I want to hit (and shatter) bone. I'd rather hit you in the shin than the calf muscle, for example. By the same reasoning, I'd rather be hit in muscle, which hurts, than bone, which would render the arm mechanically unusable. Now, with a heavy strike from a fighting stick it isn't apt to make a huge difference to my ability to continue, but to the extent it might then I'd rather absorb as much as I can not on bone.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As a stickfighter, if I intend to hit you with a heavy stick then I want to hit (and shatter) bone. I'd rather hit you in the shin than the calf muscle, for example. By the same reasoning, I'd rather be hit in muscle, which hurts, than bone, which would render the arm mechanically unusable. Now, with a heavy strike from a fighting stick it isn't apt to make a huge difference to my ability to continue, but to the extent it might then I'd rather absorb as much as I can not on bone.

This matches my instincts and reasoning. However I freely admit that my experience in the area is limited. My primary experience in being hit with a heavy stick was from my early days in the SCA fighting in borrowed armor that didn't fit me properly. (Old SCA maxim - rattan is attracted to exposed flesh.) I took a bunch of hard shots to exposed fleshy areas, primarily my thigh. The result was some nasty, painful bruises. I think that taking those shots to a bony surface would have been worse and might have resulted in broken bones, but I don't really know for sure.

 

[harlan]

Actually, that is not so. I stated deflect and the outside...never said with the bone...you assumed.

I'm curious...you are gleaning information from individuals that actually practice weapons systems because of some comments made on a different forum on a certain topic. Do you mind if I ask...what for?

Thank you arnisador for your response!

If you don't mind could you please elaborate. If I understand you clearly it seems you are casting our first vote for taking the hit on the muscle and not the bone...? If this is so can you explain why and any training or experience as to how you came to this idea?


Jason Brinn

 

[jasonbrinn]

Thank you harlan,

Sorry if there is any confusion. I actually practice weapons systems myself and have for the better part of 17 years. I have initially posted this question here to get an idea of what others believe/know. This is part of a study that my school is doing on the subject for combative purposes. I have asked the questions to other forums that I know of that specialize in weapons only for the same reasons.

My purpose as always is research, testing and improvement.


Jason Brinn

 

[jasonbrinn]

This matches my instincts and reasoning. However I freely admit that my experience in the area is limited. My primary experience in being hit with a heavy stick was from my early days in the SCA fighting in borrowed armor that didn't fit me properly. (Old SCA maxim - rattan is attracted to exposed flesh.) I took a bunch of hard shots to exposed fleshy areas, primarily my thigh. The result was some nasty, painful bruises. I think that taking those shots to a bony surface would have been worse and might have resulted in broken bones, but I don't really know for sure.

Ouch, I remember those kinds of fun days myself when I was younger and got my first DB VHS!

Jason Brinn

 

[lklawson]

This matches my instincts and reasoning. However I freely admit that my experience in the area is limited. My primary experience in being hit with a heavy stick was from my early days in the SCA fighting in borrowed armor that didn't fit me properly. (Old SCA maxim - rattan is attracted to exposed flesh.) I took a bunch of hard shots to exposed fleshy areas, primarily my thigh. The result was some nasty, painful bruises. I think that taking those shots to a bony surface would have been worse and might have resulted in broken bones, but I don't really know for sure.

Rattan ain't a crowbar.

If it was merely rattan, I'd agree: take it on the meat. But when you graduate to crowbars and axe-handles, it has moved into a power-level where it makes little difference. It's sort of like asking if you'd rather be shot with a .45 Winchester Magnum or a .45 Super; we're not talking Simunitions any more. It just doesn't matter where on the forearm you block a full power crowbar. The arm is disabled. Either the muscle is crushed and useless and maybe the bone is broken or the bone is broken and maybe the muscle is crushed and useless. Either way, the result is the same: the arm is disabled.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[jasonbrinn]

Thank you lklawson for your response.

Arnisador has confirmed my initial suspicion about taking a "stick" strike. I appreciate everyone's input on the matter.

Jason Brinn

 

[Dirty Dog]

Thank you Dirty Dog for your response!

Looks like 5 votes out of 5 for the bone.


Jason Brinn

Where did you get "on the bone" out of what I wrote?

 

[jasonbrinn]

Where did you get "on the bone" out of what I wrote?

Sorry - it just seemed like that was what you were suggesting. Did I get it wrong? If you had to take a hit from a stick would you take it on the inside or outside of the arm?

Jason Brinn

 

[punisher73]

Sorry - it just seemed like that was what you were suggesting. Did I get it wrong? If you had to take a hit from a stick would you take it on the inside or outside of the arm?

Jason Brinn

Reread what I wrote about defining "inside" and "outside". I think people are defining them differently based on that. To some outside of the arm may imply the top area of the forearm going from elbow to back of the hand, where other are defining that as going from elbow to pinky side. One uses the meat of the forearm and the other relies on bone.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Sorry - it just seemed like that was what you were suggesting. Did I get it wrong? If you had to take a hit from a stick would you take it on the inside or outside of the arm?

Jason Brinn

Go back and read what I wrote the first time. I don't think it was so poorly written that it should be difficult to understand.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Go back and read what I wrote the first time. I don't think it was so poorly written that it should be difficult to understand.

Not saying it was poorly written, only that I am not the smartest individual and sometimes (most) need things repeated to me slowly so I can get it. From what you wrote I think you mean that you would use the outside (top)(posterior) of the forearm and not the inside (bottom)(anterior) of the forearm. I could be wrong, probably am, willing to be - just looking for clarification.

Thank you. Jason Brinn

 

[harlan]

I don't think you need to apologize for IQ level...words and forum discussions can be tricky. However, viewing the original post and the course of the discussion, I do begin to question the level of your experience.

Now...I'm an old beginner myself, and don't think I have any special advantage in this discussion with my limited experience in martial arts...but at some point it starts to look like you aren't 'getting it'. That doesn't make sense, considering you have been doing this for awhile and teach. Folks can get 'testy' if what they are stating seems obvious. So, apologies if my OP post was unclear.

 

[oftheherd1]

OK, I get that you are trying to be specific what to do when there is no option. I just find that hard to accept. If I can get an arm up to block, I feel I should be able to move to the side and deflect. Failing that, I should try to do what has been mentioned about moving in, then following back with the blow to slow it down. I know that is a hard concept. It was for me when I learned it for sword defense with a short stick. But those are things I was taught in the Hapkido I studied. I was not taught to try and match force, especially a weapon, with my body when I could deflect, slow down, or not yet mentioned, retreat. But giving you no retreat, I still want to deflect and/or move back with the blow in a circle to slow it to a stop.

Sorry if that doesn't give you what you want. But why would I try to match hardness with an iron bar when I can do otherwise.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Well, according to the guidelines laid out in the original post, I'd block with the outer forearm (that is, the bony part), with the caveat that I'd enter in as deeply as possible so I intercepted the stick/club/whatever as close to the attacker's hand as possible. That would reduce the velocity of the weapon, or at least the part of it that was hitting me. I do some forearm conditioning daily but would still not want to take a hit from the tip of a club or stick on my forearm since you'd be dealing not only with a hard surface but one that would be travelling at a higher velocity that the section closer to the attacker's hand. It's like a bicycle tire; the outer rim travels faster than the hub.

I will say that given the parameters of the original post you have no choice but to take a hit from the weapon. When faced with such an attack, however, it would be much wiser to try to intercept the attacker's hand or arm. Doing so would allow you to use your block as an attack against their limb.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chinto]

If i had not choice but to take it, the outside. the inside has major vessel and tendons and things. if you survive the impact with the weapon less chance of permanent injury.

 

[jasonbrinn]

I don't think you need to apologize for IQ level...words and forum discussions can be tricky. However, viewing the original post and the course of the discussion, I do begin to question the level of your experience.

Now...I'm an old beginner myself, and don't think I have any special advantage in this discussion with my limited experience in martial arts...but at some point it starts to look like you aren't 'getting it'. That doesn't make sense, considering you have been doing this for awhile and teach. Folks can get 'testy' if what they are stating seems obvious. So, apologies if my OP post was unclear.

Thank you harlan for your response,

As you are an "old" beginner I understand why you think the way you do about my line of questioning. I can assure you I "get it." I have trained VERY seriously for over 30 years having a full time school for over 12 of those teaching many, many people. I have had incredible instructors with vast knowledge. I have had the opportunity to train with greats in the "weapons world" even getting to take lessons directly with masters such as Tuhon McGrath of Pekiti-Tirsia. Please understand that my highly specific scenario was put in place on purpose and all I cared to get was a big a group of responses as possible either way.

I train scientifically with research and testing. I am past the point on "learning" how to respond to situations like the one I laid out. What I am doing now is looking for new answers or different ones to see if potentially there are better ones. I know what the systems I have learned teach and why but I am in search of the new things that are yet to be discovered so I need all the experiences I can get.

Thanks again for your response and just know that you may be different in age to some here but we are all beginners.


Jason Brinn

 

[geezer]

Here's another take on the OP. If you are beating someone with a sitick, would you rather beat them on the meat or the bone? Both can really hurt!

If you want to cause pain rather than lasting injury, I know that you can really get someone's attention with a good sharp smack to a boney area. I think I remember seeing Emin Boztepe demonstrating this in an Escrima video once ...talking about how you can tell by the sound when you make good contact to a bone with a stick, and how much it hurts.