Stephen K. Hayes

[Kreth]

and i'm still trying to find out what "pr" means.

Public Relations. You seem quite enthused with the public image of Hayes. Have you ever trained with the man? I have, and as I said, he's very skilled. I just don't buy all the hype.

Jeff

 

[Enson]

Public Relations. You seem quite enthused with the public image of Hayes. Have you ever trained with the man? I have, and as I said, he's very skilled. I just don't buy all the hype.

Jeff

fair enough. i am enthused and inspired by hayes. unfortunatley i have never trained with hayes but have trained with a toshindo practicioner. good art and skill level all across the board.:ultracool

 

[Kreth]

Well, to be honest, I have trained with both Bujinkan and To Shin Do people who were very good, and those who sucked. I think it's more the learning abilities of the student and the fit of the training to their personality than it is a superiority of one system over the other. I've also trained with Ralph, and some of the ideas he was showing worked very well for me, some didn't.
I don't know about others, but one of the things I dislike about Hayes and his To Shin Do program (and this kind of carries over from his Nine Gates Institute days), is the way he compartmentalizes the training. For me, working on a concept with say, a bo, then working on the same concept empty-hand helps me internalize it much better. Or even working on various henka of the same technique. For me, I get a better sense of the flow than: Monday nights: Kihon Happo, Tuesday nights: Sword training, etc...

Jeff

 

[Jay Bell]

after reading all the post on this site which was suppose to be about stephen k. hayes... it seems like we end up back where we begin. talking about how hatsumi sensei is better than everyone else, and everyone should just realize that and correct there ways. (for those that don't train with hatsumi) i do realize that hatsumi is better than me, but i would dare to say there are no eternal reprocussions for not wanting to mimic hatsumi. as don has said many times before... when a person is the head of their art they can make it be whatever they want it to be. just like bujinkan, genbukan, jenikan, klingan...etc. if the head of that organization decides to integrate tkd then so be it. what have we established so far. is what hatsumi sensei teaching traditional? well from many post here i would imagine it is not. since he has been modernizing (others say perfecting) his style. even ralph said that he has had over 20 yrs. since he trained with takamatsu. if you wanted to learn what traditional ninjutsu is then you should have trained with takamatsu. but then again who is to say takamatsu knew it all? so let us review:

From what you're saying, it seems that you're attempting to understand Japanese though processes using American thought.

The nine ryu that Hatsumi sensei posseses are his, period. It's not a democracy. He owns the arts, and the organization of the Bujinkan. He's the monarch, end of discussion.

is what hatsumi sensei teaching traditional?

Define tradition? If you're asking is he following a type of training found in Japanese history, then yes.

*bujinkan is whatever hatsumi wants it to be

Just as any Soke is when they are the head of a school.

*there are some really rude people that study the bujinkan (no one on this site of course)

That goes without saying. There are rude people in any martial art.

* the japanese as described by don are a little "two faced" and "back stabbing" (all of my japanese clients are some of the best people i know)

Again, American viewpoints on Japanese ways of doing things. We have a perticular idea of 'honor' in the West. The Japanese idea of honor is much different. Things that we may view as "two faced" or "deceitful" here in the west, are something of the norm in Japan at times. And vice-versa. Japan is a different culture, through and through.

*we fight so much on this forum people think we are married. (like the hapkido guys)

I think you put much more weight in our squabbles then we do.

 

[Enson]

From what you're saying, it seems that you're attempting to understand Japanese though processes using American thought.

that is the only thought process i know. since i am... american

The nine ryu that Hatsumi sensei posseses are his, period. It's not a democracy. He owns the arts, and the organization of the Bujinkan. He's the monarch, end of discussion.

i agree with you

Define tradition? If you're asking is he following a type of training found in Japanese history, then yes.

tradition
noun

1. Something immaterial, as a style or philosophy, that is passed from one generation to another: heritage, inheritance, legacy. See affect.
2. A body of traditional beliefs and notions accumulated about a particular subject: folklore, legend, lore, myth, mythology, mythos. See knowledge

if yes, says who? is that what you believe? how are you so sure that hatsumi isn't using his own mma? didn't he study other arts before? (real question) this is not to argue... just curious. i believe that we all become part of our lives experience.

Just as any Soke is when they are the head of a school.

i agree

That goes without saying. There are rude people in any martial art.

are you sure or is that all you have been exposed to?

Again, American viewpoints on Japanese ways of doing things. We have a perticular idea of 'honor' in the West. The Japanese idea of honor is much different. Things that we may view as "two faced" or "deceitful" here in the west, are something of the norm in Japan at times. And vice-versa. Japan is a different culture, through and through.

i agree. i lived in costa rica for 3 yrs. so i know a little about different cultures. i even visited panama and nicaragua

I think you put much more weight in our squabbles then we do.

not too much weight. i still sleep at night.

 

[Rob Broad]

I looked into my user CP and saw that someone gave me negative feedback for this thread asking me if, "Are you trying to cause trouble". I asked a simple question what is Stephen K. Hayes role in today's Ninjutsu. Several people have blown this thread into anything but the answer, they are arguing about who is part of what org and so on. I'll refrain from asking simple questions in this area in the future so I don't set off any more smoke alarms.


P.S.
Thanks for the negative feedback.

 

[r.severe]

Enson
after reading all the post on this site which was suppose to be about stephen k. hayes... it seems like we end up back where we begin. talking about how hatsumi sensei is better than everyone else, and everyone should just realize that and correct there ways.


My friend this says it all..
This is why you can't get away from those guys..
Hatsumi sensei is nothing more than a human being.
Like I stated,
Hayes shihan
Manaka shihan
Tanemura sensei
Mark OBrian shihan
Of course a few others....

Have done more here in America than the soke has when it comes to teaching the ryuha...

By the way Jay, Hatsumi sensei doesn't own the ryuha..

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Dale Seago]

Mark OBrian shihan

Who, much as I love him, has been barred by Soke from training (even though he lives in Japan) for the last couple or three years due to his alcoholism, public drunk & disorderly incidents, etc. . . .

By the way Jay, Hatsumi sensei doesn't own the ryuha..

That is, quite simply, wrong. "Owning the ryuha" is part of what being a Soke is about.

Unless, as it appears, you're thinking of ryuha in a simplistic and limited sense as mokuraku or formal curricula of waza and kata.

 

[r.severe]

As for the ideas of owning...
As a non-theist.. my feelings are you never own anything.
I can only see this from the mind of a theist.. owning something.. what ego.

As a warrior student and guide of warrior skills.. I cannot understand this idea of owning something when the idea is totally agaisnt the law of nature..

As a human being.. we are trapped by our own ego and fear.. understanding this I can imagine the need for human beings to have faith and belief in owning something.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[althaur]

Anyone else feel like they just got a sermon??? If you think it is a bad thing to think of ownership(wicked ego and all), can I have your car?

Anyhoo, on to Mr. Hayes and the topic. He was the guy that had me buying all the Martial Arts mags int he 80's! Everyone else in the US was riding his coat tails with the fad that followed. He cashed in on it. Nothing wrong with that. I even had his books. He did present himself in a way that made his importance in Japan seem a lot bigger than it was though. Granted, that is showmanship, and business. I think people started to drift away when they realized that wasn't the case though. People found out that anyone could go do the exact same thing he did. He went his own way. I don't see anything wrong with that. As far as I know, he does acknowledge his roots and doesn't claim to be teaching what Sensei is teaching, unlike some others that continually seem to bite the hand the USED to feed them.

Josh

 

[heretic888]

I can only see this from the mind of a theist.. owning something.. what ego.

*laughs* Yes, because atheists never believe in the concept of private ownership.

You might have a hard time passing that one by some of my 'atheist capitalist' friends.

 

[r.severe]

HA ha ha ha LOL... Nice try. but still no way...
Hey let me know if you know anyone who took any "owership" to their grave...
By the way here is a simple example for the misunderstood... in the State of Texas you can't own a car, house and land.
The state will always own them.. LOL..

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[heretic888]

*raises eyebrow* Uhhhhh.... ookay. :idunno:

 

[Shogun]

My opinions on "owning the ryuha":


Think of it as this. Someone inherits 20,000 dollars. Now,... their money may look the same as another person's money, but they own it. They can, and have the will, to spend it as they choose. No one (excluding government, IRS, and the works) can claim the money, or do anything with it without permission. It is theirs. Same as a Ryuha. if someone recieves it, it is theirs. The skills may be like other peoples (it happens, see money) but it is pretty much theirs to mold.

 

[Don Roley]

Guys,
We are getting into serious thread drift here.

This thread is not about how anyone can use, teach and produce videotapes using the name "Kamiyama Ninpo" because Ralph Severe does not believe anyone can own a martial art. The fact that he has just signed away any chance of suing people that do use the name based on what he has written here is not the subject of the thread.

The thread is about Stephen Hayes. Can we get back on subject? Without screaming, insults or attacks on others?

 

[Shogun]

I like Steven Hayes.

 

[r.severe]

I like Steven Hayes too.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Shogun]

I watch his "classical" Taijutsu DVD. It good. I also have some Shoden level stuff.

 

[r.severe]

I like Steven Hayes...
I also like other martial artist.
The last tapes I saw of Hayes shihan was.. "the wave" and his "ranking tapes"..
Very good stuff.
I believe I will focus on getting a few more of his new DVDs..
ok..

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[tmanifold]

Hayes probably did more to bring Ninjutsu and the Booj to the forefront in the west then any single person. He introduced the West to Hatsumi's skills and as such deserves a debt of gratitude. How many people here would never have heard of The Booj or Hatsumi sensei if it wasn't for him? Is he the top western student of Hatsum sensei? No , I think that has been shown but I haven't seen him claim that since the 80's even then I think he claimed 1st. The guy is a class act from what I can tell and even now that he has gone on to his own thing he hasn't left with the bad blood some others have. He still considers Hatsumi Sensei his teacher and gives him the respect.

It is a shame some people seem to feel the need to slam him in response to some percieved disrespect.

Remember, if it wasn't for him there is a good chance Ninjustsu would still be synonamous with Ronald Duncan and Frank Dux.