Stephen K. Hayes

[terrancejack]

I'm sorry to hear Mr. Hatsumi feels this way. If this is true it makes the Bujinkan organization sound more like a cult than a martial arts system. If you train with someone whom you enjoy training with and get a lot of information from, you then will be banned from training in the Bujinkan? This sounds very petty to me but it is Mr. Hatsumi's system and he can do with it what he likes.
I'm sure this won't stop most people from learning from Mr. Hayes.

 

[gmunoz]

Terry Dobson was in Japan to learn Aikido, NOT Ninjutsu. Although he was friends and and trained with Hatsumi soke, he wasn't a "student" of Hatsumi as Hayes was.

 

[Jay Bell]

That's odd, seeing how his name was on the student register at the original Hombu. He was indeed studying Aikido under Ueshiba (wasn't that mentioned before?)....he also studied with Hatsumi sensei.

Ellis Admur on this issue:

The first westerner to study with Dr. Hatsumi was Terry Dobson, deceased, live-in student to Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry saw a notice in a newspaper about him, and sought him out in Noda- shi. He trained with him for several years, and later brought friends along - among them was Quentin Chambers who wrote the book with Dr. Hatsumi on stickfighting. Most of the Westerners were part of a small floating group, mostly practicing judo, aikido and karate.

 

[gmunoz]

I do believe you are stretching the aspect of Dobson's studentship with Hatsumi. Perhaps a bit out of context or perspective. Obviously my opinion while you have yours. My point is that Dobson's training was involving Aikido, not Ninjutsu. That was his purpose for being in Japan. Thanks anyways. An-Shu Hayes was the first American student accepted by Hatsumi sensei for Ninjutsu training - the first American to share it with the west.

 

[Enson]

That's odd, seeing how his name was on the student register at the original Hombu. He was indeed studying Aikido under Ueshiba (wasn't that mentioned before?)....he also studied with Hatsumi sensei.

maybe he signed in and walked out. was i the only one to do that in college? is segel's name in there?(sorry i had too ((joke)) hey jay i know in about the next 2 post you will mention danny waxman. the reason i know is that i saw a past post just like this one in the "ninja history" thread. i know that you are knowledgable of ninjutsu arts but i think we need dale, don, or ralph on this one. i'm not doubting you but you are the only one i have ever heard mention dobson or waxman as members before hayes and knowing much more than hayes.

 

[Jay Bell]

Are you even listening? I'll spell it out real nice and slow for you...

Terry Dobson was in Japan studying Aikido. He ALSO (see that word?) studied under Hatsumi sensei.

Hayes was *not* the first westerner accepted as a student of Hatsumi sensei. I've listened to that drivel for 13 years...and it's as wrong today as it was when Hayes originally said it. Chambers, Danny Waxman, Terry Dobson, Daron Navon, all came before Hayes.

An-Shu Hayes was the first American student accepted by Hatsumi sensei for Ninjutsu training - the first American to share it with the west.

Two different things. First part is wrong, second....ehh...might be.

 

[gmunoz]

To study with someone is one thing - To be a student of that someone is another. The article you used even points to that fact. It never says he was a student of Dr. Hatsumi's. In fact is says that these Westerners "were part of a small floating group, mostly practicing judo, aikido and karate." Hmm, no Ninjutsu... interesting...

C'mon Jay work with us here!

 

[Jay Bell]

The first westerner to study with Dr. Hatsumi was Terry Dobson, deceased, live-in student to Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry saw a notice in a newspaper about him, and sought him out in Noda- shi. He trained with him for several years, and later brought friends along

Read that one more time. He studied with Hatsumi sensei. You think he learned karate, judo and aikido from Hatsumi sensei?

As well as the following (which was discussed on Budoseek)

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3508&page=3

 

[Enson]

i know japanese is the "in thing" language here but i want to throw in some spanish... "dicho y hecho" meaning... "said and done". i knew waxmans' name was going to be mentioned. i think the kuji kiri are helping me or maybe the tengu stepped in. hee hee!:ultracool

 

[Jay Bell]

I'm failing to see your point in that, Enson.

 

[Enson]

The first westerner to study with Dr. Hatsumi was Terry Dobson, deceased, live-in student to Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry saw a notice in a newspaper about him, and sought him out in Noda- shi. He trained with him for several years, and later brought friends along

Read that one more time. He studied with Hatsumi sensei. You think he learned karate, judo and aikido from Hatsumi sensei?

As well as the following (which was discussed on Budoseek)

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3508&page=3

why do people always bring in other forums? i realize it might have been discussed there already, but i hate clicking on those other list. can't we just keep whats said here... said here? oh i forgot jay you are a moderator. my bad! (Y) i didn't activate my account right and now i can't get in to post on budoseek. but i guess thats neither here nor there.
peace

 

[Enson]

I'm failing to see your point in that, Enson.

ah man no offense intended. just funny how it all happened the way i said it would. i really mean not to start anything.

 

[gmunoz]

The first westerner to study with Dr. Hatsumi was Terry Dobson, deceased, live-in student to Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry saw a notice in a newspaper about him, and sought him out in Noda- shi. He trained with him for several years, and later brought friends along

Read that one more time. He studied with Hatsumi sensei. You think he learned karate, judo and aikido from Hatsumi sensei?

As well as the following (which was discussed on Budoseek)

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3508&page=3

I have read it just fine Jay. Thank you for your pedagogical approach with this dialogue. I still read the article you posted as stating he studied "with" not "under" Dr. Hatsumi.

"You think he learned karate, judo and aikido from Hatsumi sense?" Okay, Okay... this obviously isn't gonna get resolved. I just hate to assume things if I wasn't there. Some choose to do so. Perhaps someone qualified and unbiased can settle this question.

 

[r.severe]

Steven Hayes shihan
Shoto Tanemura shihan
Fumio Manaka shihan
Muramatsu shihan
Ishizuki shihan

This is the correct list...? Where is that bad Ralph Severe listed?
And let me tell you.. the day Hayes shihan is not in the Bujinkan is the day I will not be in the Bujinkan. This was about as poor judgement as letting Manaka shihan go.

It's funny how the soke ego waers and tears at his dojo members !!!!!

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Shogun]

This is the correct list...? Where is that bad Ralph Severe listed?

LOL

I would seriously doubt SKH is, or would ever be, out of the Booj. Bujinkan students just arent allowed to train with him. Thats all.
As for Dobson, I know he was a Ueshiba Uchideshi, and as far as I know, did'nt train under Hatsumi for very long. He wasnt an Uchideshi I dont think.!?!
But He did train with/under him.

Cheers,
Shoe Gum

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I was under the impression that Hayes and Hatsumi were close? I may have missed something somewhere. Then again, my understanding is that what Hayes is teaching now is a somewhat watered down version, with the more authentic ninjutsu training reserved for senior students who can handle the difficulty. ??

 

[Don Roley]

why do people always bring in other forums? i realize it might have been discussed there already, but i hate clicking on those other list. can't we just keep whats said here... said here? oh i forgot jay you are a moderator. my bad! (Y) i didn't activate my account right and now i can't get in to post on budoseek. but i guess thats neither here nor there.
peace

That is just plain rude and insulting. Even hinting that Jay does not play fair as a moderator is untrue and beneath someone of honor. Does the fact that the guy in the thread that is the most knowledgeable about Terry is not a member here seem to have come into your consideration? And why not post to something that is as full of details as that post is?

And let me tell you.. the day Hayes shihan is not in the Bujinkan is the day I will not be in the Bujinkan.

Ralph, you aren't a member of the Bujinkan. Did you think people would forget this thread? I am not going to argue with you about this- the facts are clear and there is no need to get into it. You are not a member of the Bujinkan, you only use the name when it is convinient.

I was under the impression that Hayes and Hatsumi were close?

According to who? And do you think that Hayes may have an interest in presenting himself as close to Hatsumi? Mind you, the Japanese people rarely talk bad about someone in public. You hear their real opinion in private while they praise people in public if they really do not like someone. That is what is so shocking when someone like Hatsumi comes out in public and says things like what Jay reported.

(Oh, and should it not be "kingdom of idiotS" in your quote from my favorite B5 charecter?)

Gmunoz, could please be consistent with what you write? You first wrote this about Hayes,

Not much can be taken away from the fact that he is the first American ever to train personally with Hatsumi-Soke.

Now you are saying this about Terry Dobson,

Thank you for your pedagogical approach with this dialogue. I still read the article you posted as stating he studied "with" not "under" Dr. Hatsumi.

So it seems to me that Hayes was not the first American to study "with" Hatsumi as you originally claimed. And I think that going to a person multiple times in order to learn from them qualifies as "under" that person.

 

[Dale Seago]

A minor correction to Jay Bell: This list of names was not announced at the April Tai Kai, but shortly afterward (mid-April Sunday Hombu training).

This was not some sudden whim on Hatumi sensei's part: He thought about it for quite some time and discussed it with certain people before promulgating the announcement. Basically, he appears not to want people "representing" him or claiming a connection with him who have scarcely trained with him over the last decade (which he has often said he considers a critical period in his teaching). The individuals named have not, as far as I know, been expelled from the Bujinkan, but Soke HAS said that those who train with them "are not welcome in the Bujinkan" and should not train in "The Booj".

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Don,
Offhand, I can't recall where I got the impression. It may have been from various forum posts, or from visiting Hayes website. I honestly don't recall. I do have several books by both and do believe there were some forewords or something by 1 in the others book. Don't have them handy though so I can't confirm my fuzzy memory. (Pity those lint shavers don't work on defuzzing memory huh? )

Oh, and I fixed the quote. Thanks!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Dale,
So basically a few individuals who were actively training in the 70's and 80's basically slowed or stopped their regular regular training with Hatsumi, who continued to move forward with his own research, and are missing the more current info? The result being that to promote accuracy folks have a '1 or the other, but not both' situation.

??