Starting out aged 4

[Abbeylima]

Hi All,

I'm looking for some advice please.

My son is due to turn 4 early next year and I want him to start a class that is suitable for what we are looking for. I understand that at an early age the immediate training will be basic and quite generic in relation to all the different disciplines however I do feel it would be best to join the club and style I would be taking him to for the next 12 years or so.

I think finding the club this early will help build consistancy, familiarity and good Strong relationships with peers and instructors.

Ok... The style I am looking for is Proactive defence system that will allow him to deal with any threat and be able handle in an instinctive, controlled manner. An art that allows him to develope speed and precision.

As you probably guess from my post, I dont know much about this, so I'd appreciate suggestions on suitable disciplines.

My son is estimated to grow to aprox 195cms at adult so i think this may have a bearing on what we shud consider.

Thank you
dave, newcastle

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Hi Dave, welcome to MT!

First of all, understand that I am no expert. I'm an adult student of Isshin-Ryu karate, but I have advanced to the point where I am assisting our head instructor in teaching the kids during their class. So this is based on both my age and my limited experience teaching karate to kids.

We seldom see kids in the dojo at age 4, mainly because they have neither the attention span nor the fine motor control to perform the requirement movements at that age. We certainly have some that are just a bit older, however. So perhaps your son is able to start training now, but more likely, a bit later.

I would also encourage you to not try to plan our your son's life for him with regard to martial arts. I am always a bit surprised by that. We have a student who is very clearly unhappy to be in class, but his parents require him to attend. Sadly, he does not perform well and has no interest in performing well, but even worse, his two younger sisters are enthralled by karate and very much want to train, but the boy's parents won't let them.

What small amount of knowledge I have of various arts other than my own leads me to believe also that most martial arts styles, taught competently, would give you son the attributes and capabilities you wish him to have. There are few bad martial arts; there are many bad instructors of martial arts. I would spend more time interviewing and researching instructors and schools than I would worrying about styles at this point.

In my limited experience, I have also tended to note that children who learn martial arts and do not learn the discipline and control that come along with it as well as good morals, are likely to become bullies and to use their skills to hurt and terrorize other children. In our school, our instructor teaches not only karate to the young children, but also notions such as 'stranger danger' and 'who is a stranger' and 'we do not use karate except in self-defense' and 'If I ever hear of you hurting someone else with your karate who was not attacking you, you will no longer be a student here.' I hope that our students not only learn karate, but also when they may and may not use it, that it is not something they demonstrate on others, and that bullying is bad. If the school doesn't teach this, the parents must. If no one does, monsters can be created.

Finally, consider also taking classes yourself. You'll learn a lot more about what your child is understanding and you'll be able to communicate with each other as fellow students on a level that you cannot otherwise. As a fellow student but an adult, you'll progress more quickly and find your ability to share what you're learning with your son enhanced. The key to success in martial arts is practice at home. If you practice at home, so will your son. It becomes a father-son activity, it's a bonding ritual, and you both learn together. Plus, it's good exercise for you and a lot of fun once you get into it.

Hope you find this helpful.

 

[clfsean]

Yeah pretty much to parrot Bill, except with more years of direct involvement with kids, I'd honestly say at 4... it's an exercise in futility. It's play time. Nothing more & honestly not worth spending cash on right now. His attention span probably for something like this is at best 20-25 minutes, maybe 30. Around age 6 or 7, you could get him in something & have real tangible results. Right now at 4, especially on the new side of 4... not so much.

Please understand, this is not knocking your son & I know every parent thinks their kid is the exception not the rule (had that issue with the ex-wife & her daughters). But after 32 years & probably the last 15 being heavily involved with teaching kids, it's just experience talking, nothing else. I personally don't & won't take a kid younger than 6, preferably 7. I happily point parents to the local McDojo so their child can sign up for the black belt guaranteed in 2 years. My CLF teacher didn't accept kids at all & my new teacher isn't accepting them younger than 10 or so when he opens his doors to the public next month.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If you don't mind me asking, where do you live? The styles depend on the instructor a lot of the time, so it would help us a lot, and besides, there's no point suggesting a style that's not anywhere near you.

 

[frank raud]

So, you have no expereince with martial arts, but want your child to train to train for the next 12 years or so? Bil is correct, 4 year olds don't have the attention span to do much with martial arts, I would suggest gymnastics instead. Rolling and tumbling will give your son increased co-ordination, a sense of how to control his body, work on a series of moves in a continous fashion,etc. When he is a little older, then I would try martial arts. Be prepared for the possibility that he may not be interested, or may prefer a different sport. I did TKD with my son when he was 6, he lost interest after 6 months. He is now,at 16 a highly competitive basketball player. I don't play basketball, but encourage him to do what he likes to the best of his ability.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

...I would suggest gymnastics instead. Rolling and tumbling will give your son increased co-ordination, a sense of how to control his body, work on a series of moves in a continous fashion,etc.

I think that's great advice!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah pretty much to parrot Bill, except with more years of direct involvement with kids, I'd honestly say at 4... it's an exercise in futility. It's play time. Nothing more & honestly not worth spending cash on right now. His attention span probably for something like this is at best 20-25 minutes, maybe 30. Around age 6 or 7, you could get him in something & have real tangible results. Right now at 4, especially on the new side of 4... not so much.

Please understand, this is not knocking your son & I know every parent thinks their kid is the exception not the rule (had that issue with the ex-wife & her daughters). But after 32 years & probably the last 15 being heavily involved with teaching kids, it's just experience talking, nothing else. I personally don't & won't take a kid younger than 6, preferably 7. I happily point parents to the local McDojo so their child can sign up for the black belt guaranteed in 2 years. My CLF teacher didn't accept kids at all & my new teacher isn't accepting them younger than 10 or so when he opens his doors to the public next month.

hmm have to disagree with a part of it, it is play time, but it's not entirely futile. If you find a school that focuses on morals, like my parents did when I was 5, then it can be useful. Also, gets the kid to have a positive experience of martial arts, that way even if they leave, they'll like martial arts when they're older and want to continue it, and if they leave, they may still want to come back when they're older. Don't know if that's what normally happens, but it's what happened for me (staying) and my brother (coming back)

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So, you have no expereince with martial arts, but want your child to train to train for the next 12 years or so? Bil is correct, 4 year olds don't have the attention span to do much with martial arts, I would suggest gymnastics instead. Rolling and tumbling will give your son increased co-ordination, a sense of how to control his body, work on a series of moves in a continous fashion,etc. When he is a little older, then I would try martial arts. Be prepared for the possibility that he may not be interested, or may prefer a different sport. I did TKD with my son when he was 6, he lost interest after 6 months. He is now,at 16 a highly competitive basketball player. I don't play basketball, but encourage him to do what he likes to the best of his ability.

If he doesn't like martial arts or gymnastics, please don't force him to continue. When that happens, the child hates it, and the children that do it with them don't like having classes with 'the person who doesn't care'.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

hmm have to disagree with a part of it, it is play time, but it's not entirely futile. If you find a school that focuses on morals, like my parents did when I was 5, then it can be useful. Also, gets the kid to have a positive experience of martial arts, that way even if they leave, they'll like martial arts when they're older and want to continue it, and if they leave, they may still want to come back when they're older. Don't know if that's what normally happens, but it's what happened for me (staying) and my brother (coming back)

We also end up with a lot of crying, wandering off, pooping in pants, and disruption to the other students. Look, it happens. His son isn't even four yet. A 3-year-old learning martial arts? Maybe a very, very, few can muster that kind of concentration. But really, even getting them to stand in a line or play games is a challenge for most of them. There's a reason that public schools don't start until age 5, and even then, you're a genius if you don't eat the paste and throw a temper tantrum every other day.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think 4 is too young and I know Judo school that will not allow anyone under 7. My daughter started TKD at 4 and got not much out of it, it was play time and part of that was her age and a big part of it was the school they had little desire to be more than a day care and a great desire to take my money so be careful when you actually pick a school.

Another thing to consider is your child’s personality. I know my daughter will never hit anyone so arts strong on punching and kicking would not be and were not a good fit for her. At 7 she started Aikido and in a few months she has gotten a whole lot more out of it than she did in a year at the TKD school. The Sensei and sempai actually are teaching real martial arts and it also fits her personality rather well.

And before the TKD people jump all over me for the above, I know TKD is a good MA, I trained TKD years ago with Jae Hun Kim waaaaay back when he only had one school. My above comment is not about TKD it is about the specific school my daughter was at which happened to be calling itself a TKD school.

So, you have no expereince with martial arts, but want your child to train to train for the next 12 years or so? Bil is correct, 4 year olds don't have the attention span to do much with martial arts, I would suggest gymnastics instead. Rolling and tumbling will give your son increased co-ordination, a sense of how to control his body, work on a series of moves in a continous fashion,etc. When he is a little older, then I would try martial arts. Be prepared for the possibility that he may not be interested, or may prefer a different sport. I did TKD with my son when he was 6, he lost interest after 6 months. He is now,at 16 a highly competitive basketball player. I don't play basketball, but encourage him to do what he likes to the best of his ability.

Agreed, my daughter started gymnastics 6 month after she started TKD (she was 5) and she got a lot more out of Gymnastics than she got out of the TKD school she was at. And that has transferred, at least in part, to her Aikido

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

We also end up with a lot of crying, wandering off, pooping in pants, and disruption to the other students. Look, it happens. His son isn't even four yet. A 3-year-old learning martial arts? Maybe a very, very, few can muster that kind of concentration. But really, even getting them to stand in a line or play games is a challenge for most of them. There's a reason that public schools don't start until age 5, and even then, you're a genius if you don't eat the paste and throw a temper tantrum every other day.

Im not saying so much that hell gain anything out of it, except that he might think about whatever style it is in a good way in the future because of the experiences, or even just nostalgia. Many people have something they did when they were little that they wish they could do again but cant for some reason, this is one thing they CAN do again

 

[Mauthos]

Basically to repeat what has gone before I would tend to advise you to hold off until your son hits 6. As mentioned previously he will probably concentrate more and get more out of training then than he ever would at 4.

Something like a tumbling class (precursor to gymnastics) is a great thing as it keeps them fit, teaches them subtly whilst they believe they are just having fun running around etc. I have done this with my daughter and she loves it. She is only 18 months now and although I really am biased at getting her into martial arts, I will not consider enrolling her in a proper class until she is at least 6.

I would also not advise determining the next 12 years for your son. I started Karate when I was 6, trained for a year and hated it. Luckily my parents did not force me to go, so I quit when I became disinterested. Several years later I took up kick boxing and Kenpo and now enjoy teaching my own classes. However, I feel that if my parents had insisted I continue with Karate (wado ryu for your info) I would have ended up despising the training and would have probably never tried anything else a few years later.

Well that's my 2 pence worth, I hope it helps, if not, just feel free to ignore

 

[clfsean]

hmm have to disagree with a part of it, it is play time, but it's not entirely futile. If you find a school that focuses on morals, like my parents did when I was 5, then it can be useful. Also, gets the kid to have a positive experience of martial arts, that way even if they leave, they'll like martial arts when they're older and want to continue it, and if they leave, they may still want to come back when they're older. Don't know if that's what normally happens, but it's what happened for me (staying) and my brother (coming back)

Focuses on morals? I'm not sure I follow. Martial arts is martial arts. It's quite literally about breaking, rending, crippling, etc... Morals should come from your parents & your parents alone. Any other influence from the outside should be tempered with how parents are raising the child. Nobody else is needed, so quite literally, the MA school should focus on one thing, not being a pseudo or stand-in parent. School codes & creed & such... I have very little use or need of them. In TCMAs, people who practiced MAs weren't always the nicest, most upstanding folks. Sure, we have 'mo duk' but that's not the same as 'morals'.

And so I understand the term the way you used it, what is a "positive experience"? Seriously. I truly want to understand your perspective of the term in this context.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Martial arts is martial arts. It's quite literally about breaking, rending, crippling, etc...

Then it should not be taught to children. At all. IMHO.

Children and emotionally immature people will take what they learn and use it in inappropriate ways. The instructor may feel some responsibility for providing students with guidelines, rules, warnings, or other guideposts to help those who might not otherwise grasp concepts like "If you perform a knife-hand strike to the throat on your playmate because a) you know how to do it, and b) your playmate stole your chocolate milk carton, you may seriously injure or even kill them, so don't do that."

Martial arts is martial arts, yes. But there is nothing restricting martial arts schools from offering sage advice along with the martial arts instruction. IMHO.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Focuses on morals? I'm not sure I follow. Martial arts is martial arts. It's quite literally about breaking, rending, crippling, etc... Morals should come from your parents & your parents alone. Any other influence from the outside should be tempered with how parents are raising the child. Nobody else is needed, so quite literally, the MA school should focus on one thing, not being a pseudo or stand-in parent. School codes & creed & such... I have very little use or need of them. In TCMAs, people who practiced MAs weren't always the nicest, most upstanding folks. Sure, we have 'mo duk' but that's not the same as 'morals'.

its not about martial arts focusing on morals, its about most things that involve little kids focusing on morals in general, which includes martial arts 'kids' classes. This is a bit of an opinion, but I feel as if MA schools often do a better job of that then other activities, although im sure others disagree. And yes, parents should raise the child, but there is ALWAYS outside influence, so the parents should try to make as much of that outside experience experience they want for their child, rather than ones they dont want.

And so I understand the term the way you used it, what is a "positive experience"? Seriously. I truly want to understand your perspective of the term in this context.

For kids (while this isn't the point of MA) a positive experience would be anything that they had fun doing, and (hopefully) learned something while doing it. The fun could be from any part of MA-sparring, learning kata/self-defense forms, or punching/kicking bags, and the learning would be from the same area (plus morals or how qi works if they go to a school that actively teaches that).

 

[clfsean]

Then it should not be taught to children. At all. IMHO.

Children and emotionally immature people will take what they learn and use it in inappropriate ways. The instructor may feel some responsibility for providing students with guidelines, rules, warnings, or other guideposts to help those who might not otherwise grasp concepts like "If you perform a knife-hand strike to the throat on your playmate because a) you know how to do it, and b) your playmate stole your chocolate milk carton, you may seriously injure or even kill them, so don't do that."

Martial arts is martial arts, yes. But there is nothing restricting martial arts schools from offering sage advice along with the martial arts instruction. IMHO.

Sorry it took so long, but I had an extended lunch with my brother who's moving next weekend out of state & this is only time our schedules let us meet up.

Bill we agree more than not on most things & where views diverge is in detail. So I'll go with "Yes" on your post since it is about 98% along with mine, but the 2% is pure details that gets sticky & no fun trying to present clearly.

 

[clfsean]

its not about martial arts focusing on morals, its about most things that involve little kids focusing on morals in general, which includes martial arts 'kids' classes. This is a bit of an opinion, but I feel as if MA schools often do a better job of that then other activities, although im sure others disagree. And yes, parents should raise the child, but there is ALWAYS outside influence, so the parents should try to make as much of that outside experience experience they want for their child, rather than ones they dont want.

Yeah... definitely an opinion. Right on for you, just different than mine.

For kids (while this isn't the point of MA) a positive experience would be anything that they had fun doing, and (hopefully) learned something while doing it. The fun could be from any part of MA-sparring, learning kata/self-defense forms, or punching/kicking bags, and the learning would be from the same area (plus morals or how qi works if they go to a school that actively teaches that).

Gotcha...

 

[Abbeylima]

Hi All,

I'm really overwhelm but the reponses and advice. Thank you very much

Firstly, We live in Newcastle upon Tyne.

I'd like to clarify a add few points as I type the initial message on a smartphone.

I agree on what's been mentioned and already guessed that any class which allows in a 4 year old is basically going to be fun and games, however I'm sure the games can be done in a constructive manner and teach skills such as co-ordination, a certain degree of discipline and fitness. I understand whatever I choose might be completely the wrong choice and he might prefer to go to ballet classes instead. It didn't come across in my posting but I would never force my children to participate in something they weren't happy with. I have an 8 year old daughter who I took to twice to karate... She didn't continue and now plays violin with the North East Music Co-operative as her main pleasure.

We as parents always want the best for our children and so I'm trying to do some research to discover what course would suitably equip him with the tools and techniques to help prepare him physically and mentally for life's challenges and even employment. I mentioned 12 years as an estimate. I'd hope it would be a life long relationship with a particular organisation, but as I've already stressed, we don't know his preferences yet. So I would never map out his life but just hopeful he'd enjoy this as he is a very big physical boy (@3.5 years 110cms 22.5kgs) and also learn how to protect himself in this dangerous world.

I'm 193cms and played basketball in my earlier years, so for him doing something like that is also fine. I think the gymnastics is an excellent shout. I live close to Gateshead International Stadium so I would expect something like that to be available there. I will look into it as I appreciate agility, balance etc.. are important and transferable. It was suggested that I should also join. I had a bit of a workplace incident a few years back and maybe shouldn't do anything to strenuous.. although I would be his dummy at home to practice on.

So I guess the emphasis is on finding a good instructor rather than looking at each discipline?
If you had the same instructor with the same level of expertise and skill set across all disciplines... what would be the most suitable MA to the style I've described?

So thanks again to everyone for their input.

 

[No man]

Hi All,


So I guess the emphasis is on finding a good instructor rather than looking at each discipline?
If you had the same instructor with the same level of expertise and skill set across all disciplines... what would be the most suitable MA to the style I've described?

So thanks again to everyone for their input.

For what it's worth, In my opinion, Bill is a straight talker and his advice is sound. Mine will probably sound very similar. I am also not an expert in anything, but I have relevant experience I feel, being that of the four year old in martial arts class. I'm twenty five now, and I'm a student of a school that teaches what is essentially Kang Duk Won/Chang moo kwan, but my parents signed me up for some kind of karate class when I was four, with good intentions but not knowing anything about martial arts in general, except that it was good to have an activity and that martial arts can be beneficial. Unfortunately, the instruction at this particular dojo was subpar.

Being both portly and a gentleman, I avoid disparaging the obese, and people in general, but the instructor was in such a condition that there was no way he had done any significant training of his own for a very long time. I didn't know what I was looking at at the time, but remembering now how he moved then, and knowing myself what it's like to weigh 300lbs and practice martial arts, he was clearly unfamiliar with moving his body in some of the requisite ways, and it was reflected in the way he taught. He had me try a flying front kick against resistance before I was comfortable or familiar with a regular ol' front kick, with or without resistance. The kid holding the bag planted himself in his stance for whatever reason, and because I had no idea what I was doing and the technique was poorly explained and I didn't even get to practice the movements in the air or anything, when my foot connected with the bag my solar plexus was driven against my then stationary knee behind the forward momentum of my entire body weight. I hit the mat like a sack of wet bricks winded and hit my head. The teacher didn't ask if I was ok, or check for injury. He didn't even bother breaking his stance, or trying to help me understand why the kick didn't work. He just wanted me to get up and get back in line. That may be a suitable way for grown men familiar with their bodies to learn, but I don't think that kind of attitude has any place in a children's class.

The school was also highly commercialized. There seemed to be more emphasis on colorful uniforms, patches and shiny trophies than executing proper technique or learning how to practice correctly on one's own. These are all pitfalls you can avoid in your case by taking a little time to check out any style and/or instructor on your own. I'd recommend waiting until the older side of four, and in the mean time, start taking some classes on your own to get familiar. More often than not, you can sit in on a class or two at any given school to see if you want to join up. The style you choose is largely immaterial, in my opinion, and is secondary to the quality of the instruction. All schools of martial arts are basically different answers to the question "How best does one go about killing or disabling an opponent in four dimensions with two arms, two legs and the occasional implement?" As long as you find a teacher that knows what they're talking about as well as how to talk about what they're talking about, you and your son will both learn things that can be applied to whatever martial art you end up landing in down the road. The first school doesn't have to be THE school, and you don't necessarily need to find a school to find good instruction. One of the best teachers I've had to date would teach us in whoever's backyard was available that week, or the most convenient park in exchange for food, beer and cigarettes.

Focuses on morals? I'm not sure I follow. Martial arts is martial arts. It's quite literally about breaking, rending, crippling, etc... Morals should come from your parents & your parents alone. Any other influence from the outside should be tempered with how parents are raising the child. Nobody else is needed, so quite literally, the MA school should focus on one thing, not being a pseudo or stand-in parent. School codes & creed & such... I have very little use or need of them. In TCMAs, people who practiced MAs weren't always the nicest, most upstanding folks.

I agree with you that the school should not be a stand in parent, but I think there is a responsibility that comes with taking death or life changing harm in your hands, and it's the teacher's responsibility to leave no question about that in the student's mind. A firearms instructor will be sure to tell you never to point your gun at something you don't want to shoot, not to put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to shoot, and not to bother carrying or drawing your gun if you're not absolutely ready to kill. Don't wave it around, don't issue threats. When the weapon is drawn, it's do or die. Or maybe even do and die. Similarly, when learning how to kill with your hands, you need to know what deadly force is for and what it's not for. Don't wave your hands around, don't issue false bravado. When it's time to fight it's because you're going to die otherwise.
No, historically, martial artists haven't always been very nice people, I'll give you that. And while morality shouldn't be a focus of one's time at the dojo, everyone's behavior is affected by their morality at every step of the way, and so there is no avoiding moral influence from the outside. Considering how impressionable young children are, wouldn't you think it would be important for a parent to choose a beneficial and responsible moral influence for their child during the one brief window of time where they have the most influence over what does and doesn't get impressed on their child's young mind, especially when dealing with something like martial arts?

Please forgive the wall of text =P

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm 193cms and played basketball in my earlier years, so for him doing something like that is also fine. I think the gymnastics is an excellent shout. I live close to Gateshead International Stadium so I would expect something like that to be available there. I will look into it as I appreciate agility, balance etc.. are important and transferable. It was suggested that I should also join. I had a bit of a workplace incident a few years back and maybe shouldn't do anything to strenuous.. although I would be his dummy at home to practice on.

Check with your doctor of course, but there is often no impediment to many different sorts of martial arts training even with some fairly significant disabilities. I'm talking about people who are blind, deaf, missing limbs, even some with Down's. I would not be so quick to label yourself unable to learn a martial art. If you choose not to, of course, that's understandable; not everyone's cup of tea.

So I guess the emphasis is on finding a good instructor rather than looking at each discipline?

I would if I were in your place. I would not concern myself with the art in question much, if at all. It's all down to the instruction.

If you had the same instructor with the same level of expertise and skill set across all disciplines... what would be the most suitable MA to the style I've described?

Even then, it's difficult to say. Most if not all martial arts styles are effective, and have produced champions and well-regarded martial artists with a variety of body types; although one may say that certain styles favor certain body types, it's so general that it's hard to say with any degree of certainty that a person who is X tall and weighs Y will be happier or better doing martial art A, B, or C.

And it's not just that I'm trying to avoid making a recommendation; if I thought one martial art was superior given a particular body type, I'd say so. Most of your self defense-oriented martial arts are down to grappling, stiking, using joint locks, balance points, and manipulation or some combination of all three. Some emphasize one aspect more than others. I can definitively say that at my age and given my lack of flexibility, I won't be switching to Tai Kwon Do; I can't do the high kicks and have no intention of trying; whilst TKD likewise has an emphasis on kicking instead of punching and brother, I'm a puncher. But that choice would not be appropriate for me to make a recommendation against TKD for others; many learn it and do quite well with it; and I even know a very good friend who is very large and heavy and did TKD for a number of years and he can and does perform AMAZING feats of flexibility to this day; so even body type doesn't necessarily mean anything even then (if you're young).

You might try narrowing down your choices and then taking your son round to see what he responds to. Perhaps the visual stimulus of seeing them do what they do will excite or interest him.

So thanks again to everyone for their input.

It's no problem. I realize it can be frustrating when all you're looking for is a definite answer and it appears no one wants to give you one. But it's not that, we'd love to help and I hope we have in some way, but there isn't a set of facts you can insert into a machine, turn the lever, and an answer pops out regarding martial arts. It's not like "Oh, he's going to be tall, get him doing XYZ," or "Oh, he's got a wide body, better get him started in ABC." Get a good instructor, find an art he's interested in and will pursue, and you may have done him a service that will pay him back all the days of his life. I would not spend much time worrying about which one is the right one for him. The right one is the one he will keep doing, which is taught by someone who knows what they are doing.

Just use an abundance of caution when investigating instructors. Poor instruction does not do anyone any good; it's a waste of time and effort, and it builds confidence in skills that may not exist.