Splashing Hands

[chris lomas]

Jeff,
Valuable information for sure. 'Shoshi', I'm sure I have heard that name before robably from Sifu mcNeil.

From what I've heard Lima Lama in its formation was originally more of an association of Martial Artists who shared stuff rather then a style, but over time it 'evolved' into its own thing, would that chime true to your knowledge of the history? Everyone always says Tino was an amazing martial artist so with him at the helm the art must be superb (being in the UK I have never really seen anything other then clips).

Certainly we have more then one way of doing the browns and Tiny seemed to find Change at the core of his art and would therefore, hopefully, pass that on to his students.

Thank you for your information I really appreciate it. I would love to get some footage if that would be possible (I will of course pay whatever is needed) PM me if that would be okay?
Best
Chris

 

[scythe1969]

Well, I spoke more about the whole time period with Master Lugo last night at training. He was 14/15 when he started training with Master Tino (much younger than I originally thought). He remembers all the original students and his age at the time explains why he calls most of them 'his teachers' even though technically they all would have been students. He has great stories from that time but it also illustrates that the training back then was much harsher and regimented than most of us have ever experienced.

As far as the history of Limalama is concerned... I know what I've been told and I don't claim to be a historian so locking me down to "quotable specifics" may be difficult. I know for sure that it is a conglomerate of the original Polynesian schools that are listed on the website. There is a distinct 'Polynesian Look' (my term) to the forms when they are taught in their original form. In order for us to get some of the subtleties ironed out we have been taught certain Polynesian dance steps to help work on flow. Master Tino had all the original students learn these tribal dances and some of these have forms hidden in the dance steps. There is also strong mixture of Boxing (Master Tino was an incredible boxer); a lot of our footwork (45 shuffle, walk lift, dragon shuffle, etc) has definitive traces of that. Now, the parts that I'm not sure of but have been taught as part of what I would call 'supplementary' techniques in my training are Butterfly, Dragonfly, Splashing hands and Hammer Fist (very similiar to the striking found in Lua). Last but not least there are aspects of 5 animal style Kung-Fu from Ark Wong and his Brown Monks. Predominantly, the Leopard and the Tiger. Again, this is what I've been told - not researched. As a personal note, I tend to be more of a practitioner than a historian...

I would be more than happy to share the various clips I have. My teacher has the original video tapes but I have converted most of them to some form of .mpg file so I'll PM you to work out the details of getting the files over to you. If you're interested in seeing some of the forms that we work on, I can pass on some of those as well (I video tape as much as I can just to have a frame of reference for my own training). There is a distinct difference between what I'm being taught and what is available for viewing on the web. One of the things that the art has had to deal with is its growth without Master Tino and now Limalama has become more of a mash-up of other things (Tae Kwon Do, Kenpo, etc) that were never there at the start. For instance, in its original form there were never any kicks above the waist. We only have 5 kicks and all of them are delivered low or with a stomp... Now that Rudy is back at the helm and the organization is being revitalized I'm hoping that we will be able to get back to the roots of origin. There is a ton of material to be passed on in this wonderful art.

I look forward to more dialog and I'll get the clips prepped for you as soon as I can.

Jeff

 

[marlon]

I've heard that as well.

Actually that was between he and Sifu, and neither ever talked about it that I heard.

I don't really have an understanding of what someone would now call "Splashing Hands." It, for me, was a non-existent style even back in the day. I think the Chinese Arts just like more modern ones suffer from semantical descrepancies in their identity. What I called Splashing Hands was just a nickname, a throw-a-way term from a particular perspective of stripped down teaching of the time for certain elements of Mok-Gar.

These terms have been influenced by the Japanese mindset where style names actually meant a specific, non-changing "way" of doing something. Whreas in the Chinese Arts it was a reflection of a particular philosophy from a "family style head."

Both Ark Wong, Jimmy Woo, and Ed Parker all said, "They're all the same." There is this huge body of knowledge, and how you choose to teach it, and what part you choose to focus upon, is why some give it a style name. There was a time when these style names meant more. Now the answer is to talk about philosophy of execution, training, and goals of the teacher. Call it whatever you want, Splashing Hands? Mok-Gar? Kenpo? It's all the same, and none of the same.

For me, spending an inordinate amount of time trying to tie down a name, is not as important as my continuing education of the science of execution. Some have called what I do different things on different nights based on their own background. Some say kenpo, some say not. Some say Five Animal, some say not. I've even heard Splashing Hands, I say not, but does it really matter. My teacher called it kenpo. But he called all of his work kenpo and it is all different depending upon when you learned, and what he wanted to teach you. So I call what I do, "Kenpo as I learned from my teacher in a method and manner he didn't seem to teach anyone else that I know of." Shortened to SubLevel Four or SL-4 Kenpo. There are elements of all observers recognitions, and why shouldn't it be? There truly is only one correct way to do something physically, so when you do these correct.....

"Call any of it what you will, as long as you do it looking up after I knock you down." - Haumea "Tiny" Lefiti

Hello Doc,
can you or anyone else elaborate on the foot work, please?

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

from what i have seen on youtube the footwork seems to be built for one on one fighting and not multiple attackers, could this be why Mr.Parker's foot work is so different. While striking the SH defender seems to be moving in anticpation of follow up strikes which seems wasted especially if there are multiple attackers. I notice though that when the SH defender moves in for a skeletal manipulation it looks much more like kempo and the foot works changes in such a manner that it could accomadate a multiple attacker scenario? Am i misunderstanding this completely? I have only seen the youtube clips

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Doc]

from what i have seen on youtube the footwork seems to be built for one on one fighting and not multiple attackers, could this be why Mr.Parker's foot work is so different. While striking the SH defender seems to be moving in anticpation of follow up strikes which seems wasted especially if there are multiple attackers. I notice though that when the SH defender moves in for a skeletal manipulation it looks much more like kempo and the foot works changes in such a manner that it could accomadate a multiple attacker scenario? Am i misunderstanding this completely? I have only seen the youtube clips

Respectfully,
Marlon

That's an interesting observation I had not considered, and initially you would seem to be correct. In my contact and also recollections from observing a couple of Limalama black belts who were also students of mine, the quick "drag-step shuffle" appears to be the primary footwork. Very explosive and functional in linear offensive execution.

 

[kal]

There are untold questions about Sifu Lefiti and his untimely death that remain a secret that deal with some questionable health hazards when performing some technique from this particular art .

Does anyone know what really happened to him? What caused his death? Was it training?

 

[Doc]

Does anyone know what really happened to him? What caused his death? Was it training?

Heart attack and lifestyle choices, not the arts.

 

[ChrisBlaze]

Hello anyone who is still interested in Splashing Hands, as I am.
I am attempting a short documentary film for social media, on the history of Master Haumea Lefiti's Art of Self Defense, commonly referred to as Splashing Hands. I am resurrecting this thread to invite anyone with personal knowledge of Master Lefiti's art, training and life. Not what somebody may have heard or read, but rather if there are any remaining direct students or grandstudents who can contribute, with direct experience.
My only goal is to shed some much needed light on this awesome system, without conflict. All perspectives are welcome. Please PM me.
Thank you, all. Salute

 

[ChrisBlaze]

Hello anyone who is still interested in Splashing Hands, as I am.
I am attempting a short documentary film for social media, on the history of Master Haumea Lefiti's Art of Self Defense, commonly referred to as Splashing Hands. I am resurrecting this thread to invite anyone with personal knowledge of Master Lefiti's art, training and life. Not what somebody may have heard or read, but rather if there are any remaining direct students or grandstudents who can contribute, with direct experience.
My only goal is to shed some much needed light on this awesome system, without conflict. All perspectives are welcome. Please PM me.
Thank you, all. Salute

I'd also like to add I have been training and teaching Master Lefiti's Art of Self Defense for 20+ years, and only want to promote our art for the benefit of all students and teachers. Thank you, I look forward to some support

 

[Doc]

I'd also like to add I have been training and teaching Master Lefiti's Art of Self Defense for 20+ years, and only want to promote our art for the benefit of all students and teachers. Thank you, I look forward to some support

And who taught you, "Splashng Hands?"

 

[Doc]

And who taught you, "Splashng Hands?"

Okay, since I can't get an answer, I'll say this. First "Tiny" Lefiti didn't have an art called "Splashing Hands." The term was a colloquialism. I knew and have a Lefiti Diploma on my wall and nowhere is there a reference to "Slashing Hands." The term comes from James McNeil who teaches what he says came from Haumea Lefiti, except everyone I know who was direct students of Lefiti indicates otherwise. However, he has the right to teach his interpretation of what he said he learned, but to characterize it as Lefti's Art would be incorrect. Lefiti was a student of my other Sifu Ark Wong and came to us as a student of Mok Gar, and continued his study with Sifu Wong. And while Haumea, nicknamed "Tiny," because he wasn't, used multiple names, including Gung fu to describe his own teachings, he had settled on Limalama before he passed away early at the age of 38 years old, collaborating with "Tino" Tuiolosega, Sol Kwaihewalu, Sal Esquivel, Richard Nunez, and John Louis. The only other three living direct students of Haumea Lefiti are GM Douglas Wong, GM, Wilson Quon, and Dr., Carl Totten. All of them have addressed this issue and have stated emphatically what I articulated, and the fact that James McNeil never rose above the rank of "green belt." For any additional clarifications, I suggest you contact one or all of these gentlemen directly. They are prominent on Facebook in the Ark Wong Wah Que, Kenpo Past, and Martial Science University, pages. Thank you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Let's take a look at this video.

1. A right punches. B blocks with right hand.
2. A left punches. B blocks with right arm with left back palm strikes at A's face.
3. B left hand takes over the blocking with right hand punches at A's chin.
4. B right hand takes over the block with left hand punches at A's chin.
5. B right elbow strikes at A's face.
6. B right hand punches A's groin.
7. A right hook punches. B blocks with left hand.

Between A's left punches (at 2) until A's right hook punch (at 7), B has done 5 strikes.

If B can do 5 moves while A can only do 1 move, that means B is 5 times faster than A. Is this a realistic assumption?

 

[kfman]

Not to bust your bubble or diss your sifu in anyway ,but "Splashing Hands" is not a traditional chinese martial art. It is a creation of Mc Neil's or his sifu. This does not mean it's not/is effective though.

Many have done this learned a number of techniques and then labled it with their own name. I really don't know much about Mc Neil ,but it seems noone knows much about Mc Neil except those that buy his books and are students of his or within his lineage.

This is from the website you posted in your thread.

Ark Wong Yuey is known for many styles ,but i've never heard of him having any knowledge or anything to do with "Splashing Hands" ,plus he's a name that comes up alot from the mouths of many fruads within the CMA community.

Ark Wong Yuey is a name that brings many a TCMA stylist a strong since of hatred ,because it is said he taught anything to anyone for a price. So many ppl claim him as their teacher even those that teach nothing but kenpo/kempo hybrids.

I'm not saying that Mc Neil is a fake or fruad because i don't know him ,but he's surely a secretive person.

jeff

I have practiced the Five Family Style for 45 years. My teacher was an indoor student of his. To the best of my knowledge, Ark Wong did not teach splashing hands to Lefiti. I never heard of anyone hating him. Ed Parker did not study with Ark Wong. Just because someone studied with Ark Wong or took a picture with him means they are any good. I've seen videos of Splashing Hands and they were irritating to watch. Like a poor version of the real thing.

 

[Oily Dragon]

For what it's worth, I've never heard of "Splashing Hands", but whatever art this demo video is a part of, it definitely contains southern CMA elements.

So, this McNeil dude learned some CMA from Wong, and then repackaged it for "brown 9" which I'm guessing is a belt color/rank?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Let's take a look at this video.

1. A right punches. B blocks with right hand.
2. A left punches. B blocks with right arm with left back palm strikes at A's face.
3. B left hand takes over the blocking with right hand punches at A's chin.
4. B right hand takes over the block with left hand punches at A's chin.
5. B right elbow strikes at A's face.
6. B right hand punches A's groin.
7. A right hook punches. B blocks with left hand.

Between A's left punches (at 2) until A's right hook punch (at 7), B has done 5 strikes.

If B can do 5 moves while A can only do 1 move, that means B is 5 times faster than A. Is this a realistic assumption?

The demo is legit, it's pretty typical for CMA infighting demos to showcase multiple options during an initial cross of arms. Assuming Wong picked up a mish mosh of Cantonese styles, empty handed and weapons.

Parrying palm and covering palm are straight from Tiger Crane, the short rib strikes are pretty standard in all boxing styles, and the shuffling step is found in all sorts of short range CMA. Using both hands for something (strike-block, block-strike, block-block, strike-strike) is a common theme across many subsets (e.g. Wu Dip Jeurng).

I'd chalk this video up to "here's what is possible" rather than "fit all this in" but yeah, I've seen people that fast who can score multiple strikes before their opponent can even figure out what's happening.

That groin "strike", btw, is a staple of southern Dragon because it's not just a strike, it's a technique for grabbing the groin and mule kicking the stomach (found in the Taming the Tiger/Fuk Fu foundation sets).

Generally these combinations would be used on people already struck and vulnerable. You've popped them on their nose, they are countering with fists, but you have slipped underneath, grabbed their jock shorts, and bam, kick to their unguarded belly.

 

[kfman]

If you are looking for some information about "Splashing Hands," try researching Mok Ga. I believe that is the original name of the system studied by Mr. Lefiti. I had the opportunity to attend the Christmas party at Sifu Douglas Wong's school (White Lotus) a year, or 2 ago. At the party the students gave a demo of Mok Ga "Splashing Hands." Sifu D. Wong was a first generation student of Ark Wong, as well as Mr. Lefiti (his portrait is proudly posted on the wall with his additional masters). The demo was great, like everything that comes out of Sifu D. Wong's kwoon. This is one of the systems that is taught at the school. The excessive slapping is a unique characteristic of the system that is also strikingly similar to Mr. Parker's American Kenpo. My take on it is that it ensures relaxation while striking/blocking/checking. A "whipping torque" is what I use to describe the blocks and strikes of the art (hence the Kenpo saying that, "Strikes are the intermissions of relaxation.") Very powerful, sometimes difficult method of execution, since relaxation during combat is not a natural reaction. This makes Mr. Chapel's earlier post make even more sense about the Parker(Kenpo)/Lefiti(Splashing Hands) connection. I am convinced of it! Mr. Chapel is a great source of knowledge on this topic, being that he was around Ark Wong's school in L.A. Chinatown for some time. In addition, Mr. Chapel was the only person to respond to my post on a kenpo forum a while back, in regards to Mr. Lefiti. This is a part of EPAK history that many are not aware of. There is definitely a connection there somewhere! Hopefully, he can add something to this. As far as the name "Splashing Hands," I am not sure of its origin, or if it was made up over the years. I hope this helps you out. One more observation that I have made is that Aside from Kenpoists, Lima Lama practioners exhibit these same slapping characteristics as well. Some of their techniques I have seen seem even softer, in nature, than some Kenpo techniques. As we know, Mr. Lefiti was one of the founders of the Lima Lama system. Who knows?? Just observations!!!

Ever since I saw an old 8mm (black n white, no sound) 3-4 minute video, actually it was copied onto beta (yeah, remeber beta) of Mr. Lefiti I have been somewhat on a quest to find out more about him. Mr. Chapel's description of him was right on. Simply, awesome! I really do hope it helps you out.

Also, a quick side note: In regard to my screen name "Blending Hand." It is not associated with Splashing Hands. I have never studied this particular system. It basically refers to parries, or the passive, aggressive motion of redirecting an attack. Just FYI

Take care,
Jay Brett

Doug Wong did not get that far with Ark Wong. I saw him demonstrate in the early 80s and he was horrible.

 

[kfman]

For what it's worth, I've never heard of "Splashing Hands", but whatever art this demo video is a part of, it definitely contains southern CMA elements.

So, this McNeil dude learned some CMA from Wong, and then repackaged it for "brown 9" which I'm guessing is a belt color/rank?

He did not learn from Ark Wong.

 

[punisher73]

For what it's worth, I've never heard of "Splashing Hands", but whatever art this demo video is a part of, it definitely contains southern CMA elements.

So, this McNeil dude learned some CMA from Wong, and then repackaged it for "brown 9" which I'm guessing is a belt color/rank?

My understanding is that only James McNeil uses that term.

It came from a subset of the Five Families, Mok Gar (sometimes called Monk Fist Boxing because it was taught only to monks who guarded the gates). It was described as "hands of the snake and feet of the rat". Meaning it was very fast strikes to vital points and shuffling footwork done in close for power and adjustments.

As most things in the US, it was blended with other kung fu through GM Ark Wong by Haumea "Tiny" Lefiti and passed on with his prior martial arts training and fighting experiences.

"Browns" is the name given to the basic and advanced combinations taught as the foundation of the system. For the life of me, I can't remember how they got that name. But, in training them they were a generic template that would be executed in various ways as you advanced and depending on the attack. There were at least 10 variations on each one.

The information about the "browns" came from a Dr. Carl Totton article I came across on the internet. Dr. Totton was one of only 8 people to actually be given a rank certificate in his kung fu art.

 

[kfman]

My understanding is that only James McNeil uses that term.

It came from a subset of the Five Families, Mok Gar (sometimes called Monk Fist Boxing because it was taught only to monks who guarded the gates). It was described as "hands of the snake and feet of the rat". Meaning it was very fast strikes to vital points and shuffling footwork done in close for power and adjustments.

As most things in the US, it was blended with other kung fu through GM Ark Wong by Haumea "Tiny" Lefiti and passed on with his prior martial arts training and fighting experiences.

"Browns" is the name given to the basic and advanced combinations taught as the foundation of the system. For the life of me, I can't remember how they got that name. But, in training them they were a generic template that would be executed in various ways as you advanced and depending on the attack. There were at least 10 variations on each one.

The information about the "browns" came from a Dr. Carl Totton article I came across on the internet. Dr. Totton was one of only 8 people to actually be given a rank certificate in his kung fu art.

Splashing Hands has nothing to do with Mok Gar. Mok Gar is a kicking style. My understanding is that Lefiti never got past the second Five Family Style form called the Small Cross. Ark Wong did not teach Splashing Hands. Too many many people claim to have have a certificate from Ark Wong, which is highly doubtful. SUPPOSEDLY after Ark Wong died, certificates were taken from his desk and forged his signature. I won't mention names. Unfortunately there is too much misinformation and claims about the Five Family Style.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Splashing Hands has nothing to do with Mok Gar. Mok Gar is a kicking style. My understanding is that Lefiti never got past the second Five Family Style form called the Small Cross. Ark Wong did not teach Splashing Hands. Too many many people claim to have have a certificate from Ark Wong, which is highly doubtful. SUPPOSEDLY after Ark Wong died, certificates were taken from his desk and forged his signature. I won't mention names. Unfortunately there is too much misinformation and claims about the Five Family Style.

Kicking but also grappling and weapons.

Honestly, the best place to learn Mok Ga elements today is probably Hung Ga, but some people may disagree. I'm sure there are legit, pure Mok Ga people out there, but I don't know any, and the last Mok Ga master I know of was this young lady, who passed in 1982.