Speed...Good or Bad?

[kenpofighter]

I got this from The Book of Five Rings (written by Miyamoto Musashi). What do you think about speed?

"In martial arts, speed is not the true Way. As far as speed is concerned, the question of fast or slow in anything derives from failure to harmonize with rhythm.
When you master an art or science, your performance does not appear to be fast. For example, there are professional courier runners who travel a route of about fifteen miles; but even so, they do not run fast from morning to night. As for those who lack the training, even if they seem to run all day, they do not reach the goal.
In the art of the dance, if a poor singer accompanies the song of a skilled singer, there is a sense of lag, which results in haste. Also, when "Old Pine" is played on the drums, it is a quiet piece, but in this case too, someone who is unskilled will tend to fall behind or get ahead. And while "High Dunes" has a rapid tempo, it is wrong to perform it too fast.
As the saying goes, the fast one stumbles and fails to get there on time. Of course, being too slow and too late is also bad.
The performance of an expert seems relaxed but does not leave any gaps. The actions of trained people do not seem rushed. The principle of the Way can be known from these illustrations....
Furthermore, when people speed rashly, it is essential for you to be the reverse, becoming calm and quiet, not being drawn in by them. The way to work on this state of mind requires training and practice."

I think that you should not go to fast where your strikes lose their power. And of course when you first learn something new, but I am talking about something that you have already practiced and know well. And also you gotta give your opponent long enough to react (which, I know isn't but seconds or less).

 

[tshadowchaser]

Speed is important to the beginner, but is lees a factor to those that have a better understanding of their opponent and themselves. Learning to read the flow of a match is at least equality as important because you are able to disrupt your opponents flow with you attack.

 

[MA-Caver]

I wondered about speed myself sometimes. I watch Tommy Carruthers

and know that he's blindingly fast but really wonder if he has any power behind them? Real power. Heavily padded, sure I'll let him wail on me to see how much power he can transfer with those 8-12 punches per second.
Any object (fist/foot) moving at a speed and hitting a stationary object (body/face/head) is going to be of course transferring that energy to the stationary object... simple physics. If a fighter/ma-ist has power behind each of those fast punches/kicks then they can be truly devastating. But if going for speed you need to be relaxed, loose to allow muscles to catch up with brain signals and react to what the brain is telling them. I can throw a fast punch but I think if I hit you it'll probably feel more like a hard slap than a blow. For me to hit hard I won't be traveling at the fastest that I can throw a punch. There's more to it, shoulder, hips, ki, etc.

Speed can be good in it's intimidation, bad in it's energy loss. You expend more energy throwing bunches of punches than combining them into several massive blows.

 

[Brian King]

It is my belief that speed is often a crutch for poor timing and working on timing is much more important than working on speed for speeds sake. Working on smoothness is also working on efficiency which just so happens to improve speed. I believe that working on timing and efficiency is more important because you can not lose it, while your speed can be affected by your physical condition (exhausted, sick or wounded) as you age and other conditions.

Regards
Brian King

 

[MJS]

I got this from The Book of Five Rings (written by Miyamoto Musashi). What do you think about speed?

"In martial arts, speed is not the true Way. As far as speed is concerned, the question of fast or slow in anything derives from failure to harmonize with rhythm.
When you master an art or science, your performance does not appear to be fast. For example, there are professional courier runners who travel a route of about fifteen miles; but even so, they do not run fast from morning to night. As for those who lack the training, even if they seem to run all day, they do not reach the goal.
In the art of the dance, if a poor singer accompanies the song of a skilled singer, there is a sense of lag, which results in haste. Also, when "Old Pine" is played on the drums, it is a quiet piece, but in this case too, someone who is unskilled will tend to fall behind or get ahead. And while "High Dunes" has a rapid tempo, it is wrong to perform it too fast.
As the saying goes, the fast one stumbles and fails to get there on time. Of course, being too slow and too late is also bad.
The performance of an expert seems relaxed but does not leave any gaps. The actions of trained people do not seem rushed. The principle of the Way can be known from these illustrations....
Furthermore, when people speed rashly, it is essential for you to be the reverse, becoming calm and quiet, not being drawn in by them. The way to work on this state of mind requires training and practice."

I think that you should not go to fast where your strikes lose their power. And of course when you first learn something new, but I am talking about something that you have already practiced and know well. And also you gotta give your opponent long enough to react (which, I know isn't but seconds or less).

I've had this discussion with many Kenpo folks, due to the fact that we often see some Kenpo guys blaze thru a technique. IMHO, I think that there needs to be a balance of both. Don't go so fast that the strikes don't have any power, but don't go so slow that you're moving like a snail.

 

[jks9199]

I think that it's important to understand what speed is; it's not simply moving fast, but moving fast with a purpose. It's how fast you bring the weapon to the target -- or how fast you perceive and respond appropriately to the attack. Rhythm and timing are something else -- and equally essential. Proper rhythm and timing will be fast -- or, as I've heard many times in other training, smooth is fast & fast is smooth. You can hurry through things too fast, and improperly -- but do them properly, and they'll be fast.

There are plenty of people who are blindingly fast, against pads or in the air, but who can't land a punch. And there are others who seem to be slow, but never miss and can't be hit. So... when you say speed -- what do you mean?

 

[kenpofighter]

I've had this discussion with many Kenpo folks, due to the fact that we often see some Kenpo guys blaze thru a technique. IMHO, I think that there needs to be a balance of both. Don't go so fast that the strikes don't have any power, but don't go so slow that you're moving like a snail.

I agree! Speed makes your stuff look flashy...but that's about it. I don't see how it would be very affective.

 

[Sukerkin]

In swordwork, the manipulation of speed is as much a technique as any other element because, as has been mentioned above, of it's impact on timing.

One of the goals of swordwork is to entice the other fellow to strike when you want him to and to do so in such a fashion that, for just the split second you need, he thinks he's hit you.

This principle applies in defensive techniques too - move too fast and the opponent will evade your block or it will occur at the wrong place, surrendering the initiative you sought to capture.

From my own experience, I had trouble controlling the speed with which I put blocks in place. I was always too fast. In my defence (yeah, topic based pun attack !) it was a natural human reaction i.e. I didn't want to get hit. But if the uchi-dachi did not want to 'play along' (by striking at my block rather than at me) then that's precisely what would happen. After all, his sword only has to miss mine by a millimetre and he's in.

So speed is important but it has to be something you can control so that your pace is as fast as the situation requires and no more.

 

[shihansmurf]

I've had this discussion with many Kenpo folks, due to the fact that we often see some Kenpo guys blaze thru a technique. IMHO, I think that there needs to be a balance of both. Don't go so fast that the strikes don't have any power, but don't go so slow that you're moving like a snail.

Dead on correct.

When I boxed I remember sparring with a couple of 110 ponders. I was at that time a solid 185 pounder. I got hit a lot but the punches didn't hurt. Oh they were much, much faster that I, but I was unhamed by what landed. On the other hand, when my straight right made contact....

Ed Parker stated once in response to folks being awed about his speed with the following: " I'm not fast I just move efficiently." Speaks volumes.

As an aside, I have noticed that when fighters with those blazingly fast flurries apply that speed in sparring they have a tendency to "block themselves" by throwing multiple strikes into the same block. Since the defender hasn't lowered his blocking tool, he essentially gets to stop a few extra shots just by not having dropped his arm.

Personally, I work on being a deceptive fighter that can land power shots. Speed comes from internalizing techniques, skill come from applying them.
Better to be a a smart fighter than a fast one.

Mark

 

[stickarts]

Its definately about balance. Finding the optimal balance between power and speed and accuracy that you can actually work on the body of someone fighting back. I have seen very fast demonstrations in the air but you can see they lack substance and could not actually apply it. Also, if I had to pick having superior speed or timing, I would pick timing. I have seen superior experience and timing win over superior speed.

 

[theletch1]

An aikido-kas take on speed. It is much more about matching the speed of your opponent in the initial "crash" of the conflict. Once you've matched that speed you can control the speed of your attacker and thus of the conflict. An example for us would be working off of a haymaker type roundhouse attack. If the attack is slow and very powerful and I step in (irimi) faster than he is attacking then I wind up giving him my back on my turn. Too slow and, obviously, I get hit. But, if I match his speed properly we will mesh together fluidly and I am able to tease his balance away from him.

Now, I understand that most of you are discussing this from a hard stylist perspective so my example doesn't, on the surface, make much sense. To distill it I would say... fast or slow doesn't matter. Match the speed to the desired outcome.

 

[punisher73]

Is speed good or bad? It's neither, it just is. It has a time and place like any attribute for a fighter.

You need a certain amount of speed to strike when the opening presents itself. But, don't let your body get out of alignment and lack focus and power just for speeds sake.

There are also different kinds of speeds, such as perceptual speed, reaction speed, speed of your movement. All of those are factors too.

As far as movement speed, which it seems that is what we are talking about, you need to match and allow your opponent to react to your strikes. If you are "too fast" your opponent's body can't respond to help magnify your follow up strikes. For example, if I hit them in the chin to drive them back and allow for a very small pause the pelvic area will come forward a bit. I can magnify the strike to the lower area by meeting it as it comes forward. Also, if I wait too long, or I'm too slow I will miss that as well.

 

[The Anarchist]

I brought up the idea of "abstract concepts" on another thread about trapping, and what you see is not necessarily what it means.

This is very tricky, because it can't be proven empirically this way. That doesn't mean it's hogwash like I said other thread, it just means that you'll really have to "open up" if you know what I mean.

The formula for this kind of "speed" that we all want is not found in classical physics, i.e. massXacceleration=force.

Having that "blinding speed" is not about accelerating at all. It's not about "moving fast", it's about moving instantly.

 

[Ybot]

It is my belief that speed is often a crutch for poor timing and working on timing is much more important than working on speed for speeds sake. Working on smoothness is also working on efficiency which just so happens to improve speed. I believe that working on timing and efficiency is more important because you can not lose it, while your speed can be affected by your physical condition (exhausted, sick or wounded) as you age and other conditions.

Regards
Brian King

Coming from a non-striking art like BJJ it becomes extremely obvious that speed is not as important as proper timing and positioning, so I have to agree with Brian here.

Speed is great, if you know what your doing, but if you can't get in good position to use it, then it becomes worthless. I'm not particularly fast, but I can beat much faster opponents because I control the positioning and negate any advantage they have over me in speed.

It's about being in the right place at the right time, and the better more experienced you are, the more often that happens. And when that happens speed is great, but in away it's much more satisfying to beat them slowly.

 

[Deaf Smith]

DVC - "Diligentia - Vis - Celeritas" "Accuracy - Power - Speed" was the motto of the SWCPL (South Western Combat Pistol League.) But then it applies to any form of combat.

Accuracy, power, speed are the three legs of the triad that makes any combat technique effective. You learn to balance them out to maximize your abilty.

Speed is an important element for if the blow, no matter how powerful, no matter how exact, does not land in time then it's moot what the technique's theoretical value would be. It could devastate Godzilla but without speed it's nothing.

Accuracy is also just as important, for to use a technique that is fast and powerful but misses, is worthless. Like they say, a miss with a .45 is just as much a miss as with a .22, and so is the powerful sidekick at lightning speed.

Power is the third leg of the triad. Just as important. For a techniue that has speed and accuracy but does no real dammage has only limited uses.

But.... it is well known that speed and accuracy CAN, at times, compensate for lack of power.

This cannot be said of the other two elements.

Deaf

 

[kenpofighter]

I was thinking of this perspective today. What about throwing a right straight punch. If any of you have ever thrown a wooden board up in the air and tried to break it with a punch you will understand exactly what I am talking about. If you punch to slow you will never break the board only make it fly feet away, but most likely would have been able to break it if there had of been someone holding the board. If you can create enough speed/torque (but mainly speed) you can snap it into. There has got to be some good power that can come out of speed then, right?

 

[Brian King]

Ybot said

" but in away it's much more satisfying to beat them slowly."

LOL agree completely. I love holding up my fist and with positioning and timing having my opponent run their face into it. (Especially amusing as a kick defense)

Back on topic.

My view of speed comes from self defense/ military/ law enforcement mind sets rather than sporting. I can see speed maybe being an issue in a sport like Olympic boxing where you are graded on the number of times a certain part of your glove touches your single opponent, but in self defense or professional training I believe that it important to train to remain calm and aware. Trying to move at a speed that is quicker than you are will set up tension and fear making your work that much more difficult and actually make you slower.

Speed like some are talking about is actually an illusion. Every year as we age, we deal with injuries and limits we get a bit slower and those that we may face in combat stay young and have that youngsters speed (felons are usually under age 35 I believe). Our choice it would seem to me is to train fanatically and try to keep father time at bay or to train smarter for the long term.

While bouncing people would often talk about how quickly I was able to get to the conflict sort it out and escort the trouble maker(s) out the door. “It seemed like you just materialized at the first punch” I heard more than once, yet I never ran or even walked fast (with a purpose yes). But being aware and seeing the situations develop and taking my time getting there allowed me to approach from a direction and at a time to be most effective seeing exactly what was going on and what and who would have to be dealt with before I was with-in reach. Some thought they saw speed but what they really saw was efficiency.

When approaching a trouble maker by staying calm and deliberate I was often able to just reach up and corral them before they even realized that I was making contact with them. A slow deliberate reach did not cause a defensive reaction from them until it was too late and to be on the safe side I would reach in such a way that if they did flinch or pull away it was a reaction that I was expecting and prepared to deal with again making me seem ‘fast’ when in fact I was very slow and deliberate.

I think that it comes down to knowledge. If your movement derives from fear it will be rushed and hurried, based more on reaction and perceived or imagined threats but if your movement is derived from knowledge there will be no need to rush or hurry.

Regards
Brian King

 

[The Anarchist]

I still maintain my position. It also helps not to think of speed and power as separate concepts.

 

[Kacey]

In swordwork, the manipulation of speed is as much a technique as any other element because, as has been mentioned above, of it's impact on timing.

This was my thought as well, although not in regards to swordwork, which I know very little about. If you watch any truly skilled/gifted athlete, no matter how fast they move, they never seem to rush; their movements are smooth, even, paced - and that is, to me, the definition of grace, to be able to move quickly, smoothly, evenly, and yet to make the movements so clean that they appear to be unhurried, no matter how quickly they are performed.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I was thinking of this perspective today. What about throwing a right straight punch. If any of you have ever thrown a wooden board up in the air and tried to break it with a punch you will understand exactly what I am talking about. If you punch to slow you will never break the board only make it fly feet away, but most likely would have been able to break it if there had of been someone holding the board. If you can create enough speed/torque (but mainly speed) you can snap it into. There has got to be some good power that can come out of speed then, right?

They call then speed breaks Ken. At exibitions I hold a board in one hand, and break it with the other in a speed chop. No real power, just hitting the board so fast it does not have time to be pushed away, but bends and breaks in the middle.

I do the same thing with spinning heal kicks. Other people hold them with one hand while I break them.

Deaf