Speed and Power In Your Strikes

[Xue Sheng]

I know this is not the topic being discussed, but the above is wrong. It is not possible to apply full power at less than full speed. It is possible, however, to go full speed with no power.

A person may be able to apply more power by slowing down, because that person has not learned to integrate the proper end point timing at higher speeds, but full power requires full speed.

I have run across many people who fit into the above statement. But it is not that the block is too fast, or the punch is too fast, it is "operator error."

Actually without relaxation you can't have full power or full speed. And if you learn proper alignment and power flow you do not need full speed for full power.

 

[Danjo]

I know this is not the topic being discussed, but the above is wrong. It is not possible to apply full power at less than full speed. It is possible, however, to go full speed with no power.

A person may be able to apply more power by slowing down, because that person has not learned to integrate the proper end point timing at higher speeds, but full power requires full speed.

I have run across many people who fit into the above statement. But it is not that the block is too fast, or the punch is too fast, it is "operator error."

I wasn't arguing at the fact that speed is a component of power. Power= force X speed. If a knockout takes Power of 200 and you have Speed of 99 and Force of 2, then you end up with not enough Power to do the job. If you bring the Speed down to 70 and the Force up to 3, then it's mission accomplished. The very things that make a punch as fast as it can be are the things that rob it of power, hence my statement of optimal ratios. Punching with only the arms is much faster than using the entire body, it's also much weaker of a punch. There's only so fast a person can move and have their entire force behind it.

Same thing holds true with learning. There's only so fast someone can go and still absorb all they need to achieve expertise.

 

[Ray]

I wasn't arguing at the fact that speed is a component of power. Power= force X speed.

Help me understand your equation. I am familiar with Force = Mass X acceleration. Mass is enhanced by not just throwing the fist, but putting the body into the punch.

 

[Danjo]

Help me understand your equation. I am familiar with Force = Mass X acceleration. Mass is enhanced by not just throwing the fist, but putting the body into the punch.

Yep. Same thing I was talking about, but you said it better.

Mass in this case would be weight transfer that needs to occur to generate maximum force behind the fist being thrown. The body has to have a certain frame that supports this weight transfer involving the alignment of the shoulders and elbows and timing of the weight shift. Lacking this, you fail to put mass behind your punch. It's like the difference between a boxer's jab and the right cross. The jab is faster,but lacks mass (being only the arm) and thus is less powerful than the cross which involves the weight of the whole body. Just because the cross is slower, doesn't mean that it's not the more powerful punch. The ratio involves less acceleration in the cross, but greater mass and thus delivers more force than the jab ever could. Not a lot of people getting knocked out by jabs. We see boxers absorbing jabs for 12 rounds and still stay on their feet. If they took far less crosses, they'd be out of the fight very quickly. All of this is a way of saying that speed isn't everything. Sorry to derail.

 

[KenpoDave]

I wasn't arguing at the fact that speed is a component of power. Power= force X speed. If a knockout takes Power of 200 and you have Speed of 99 and Force of 2, then you end up with not enough Power to do the job. If you bring the Speed down to 70 and the Force up to 3, then it's mission accomplished.

Knockout accomplished perhaps. But it is not FULL power, although it is more power. Using your analogy, if you bring speed down to 70 and force up to 3, you are still capable of a speed of 99. Maybe not at the same force level, but FULL power in your example would be speed of 99 and force of 3.

I do understand your point, and I agree with it, albeit not your description.

There's only so fast a person can move and have their entire force behind it.

I agree.

Same thing holds true with learning. There's only so fast someone can go and still absorb all they need to achieve expertise.

Yes, and like power, that number is different for everyone.

 

[Danjo]

I do understand your point, and I agree with it, albeit not your description.

Ah, why can't everyone just agree with everything I say?---sigh---:wink:

 

[KenpoDave]

Help me understand your equation. I am familiar with Force = Mass X acceleration. Mass is enhanced by not just throwing the fist, but putting the body into the punch.

F=ma

P=mv

Pretty similar for these purposes. My point is that unless you punch with all of your mass at your top speed, then you are not using your full power. You are only using the power that you are fully capable of at that moment.

I may be nitpicking, and if so, I apologize. But if you have to slow down to hit harder, then you are not realizing the full potential of your body to generate power. You may be hitting as hard as you can at that moment, and we may choose to call that "full power," but then what do you call it a year of work later when you can hit harder?

 

[Danjo]

what do you call it a year of work later when you can hit harder?

Fuller power?

 

[KenpoDave]

Actually without relaxation you can't have full power or full speed. And if you learn proper alignment and power flow you do not need full speed for full power.

I agree with statement #1 completely.

But power= mass x velocity. Mathematically, if v is less than full v, then p is less than full p. And yes, if m is less than full m, then p is also less than full p.

Full power = total mass x top speed.

Maybe somebody with special powers can move these posts to a new thread? I apologize for veering.

 

[KenpoDave]

Fuller power?

Nice.:lfao:

 

[KenpoDave]

Ah, why can't everyone just agree with everything I say?---sigh---:wink:

Where's the fun in that?

 

[arnisador]

F=ma

P=mv

Pretty similar for these purposes. My point is that unless you punch with all of your mass at your top speed, then you are not using your full power. You are only using the power that you are fully capable of at that moment.

I may be nitpicking, and if so, I apologize. But if you have to slow down to hit harder, then you are not realizing the full potential of your body to generate power.

These are equations for point masses, which is a pretty poor approximation of the human body. The faster the fist moves and the heavier it is, sure; you can treat the fist as a point as long as it doesn't open on impact, I suppose. But the faster you throw a lightly packed snowball, the more mass it loses in flight. That doesn't happen with the body, but looking at that jointed assemblage as merely launching the fist as a projectile and analyzing it according to the equations of concerning point projectiles amounts to assuming the rest of the arm provides no drag.

Indeed, one expects, upon taking momentum to be your relevant quantity based on what you've written above, that

p(t)=m(t)v(t)

where m(t) is the amount of mass actually in the projectile at the given time and v(t) is its velocity, and hence some sort of line integral along the "flight path" will likely be necessary to draw any interesting conclusion.

I might wonder whether some notion of impulse is the right way to translate "power" here. In any event, I am not convinced that your equations make any sense. If I punch you, what's m? The mass of my fist? Of my body? What's v? The velocity of my fist? When? Instantaneously, at the moment of impact, or averaged over the punch time?

 

[tellner]

Once one starts tossing around "Force", "Work", "Power" and other physics terms it's best to make sure that they mean what one thinks the do. I'd suggest a trip to a general physics text or wikipedia for more precision.

Lester Ingber has kindly made his classic text Karate: Kinematics and Dynamics available online.

 

[arnisador]

I'd suggest a trip to a general physics text or wikipedia for more precision.

I'm embarrassed by how often I tell my math. students that they can get good technical info. off Wikipedia. In principle it's unreliable but in practice it contains a lot of good info. that's easily accessible and well-linked.

The Lester Ingber link looks useful!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I agree with statement #1 completely.

But power= mass x velocity. Mathematically, if v is less than full v, then p is less than full p. And yes, if m is less than full m, then p is also less than full p.

Full power = total mass x top speed.

Maybe somebody with special powers can move these posts to a new thread? I apologize for veering.

I highly doubt "Total Mass" is thrown... ever. If it was you would be throwing your body at them all the time with no root much like throwing a rock. And that is not exactly a good thing if you need to counter.

Greater mass and less top speed get you the same thing.

Relax and you can move a lot of mass easily with little resistance and hit like a truck.

I'm a taiji guy it is what we do.

 

[KenpoDave]

I highly doubt "Total Mass" is thrown... ever.

You are probably right. Even if the whole body is moving the direction of the strike, and the end point timing is right, there is likely an antagonistic muscle hanging on somewhere, or the other hand chambering by moving the other direction.

But, I never said it was. Simply that, for their to be full power, the variables in the equation must also be "full."

Greater mass and less top speed get you the same thing.

It may get you more power.

Relax and you can move a lot of mass easily with little resistance and hit like a truck.

I'm a taiji guy it is what we do.

I agree. But you cannot slow down and hit full power. The key is in perfect mechanics and perfect timing. I doubt that the realization of real "full power strikes" is attainable. That is one of the reasons that 40 years later, people still hit the bag everyday.

 

[KenpoDave]

I might wonder whether some notion of impulse is the right way to translate "power" here. In any event, I am not convinced that your equations make any sense. If I punch you, what's m? The mass of my fist? Of my body? What's v? The velocity of my fist? When? Instantaneously, at the moment of impact, or averaged over the punch time?

Well, whether m is your fist or your body depends on whether or not you know how to punch. It should be your body, but if your timing is off, it will be somewhere in between. v would be velocity at the point where the measurement is being taken. If you are aiming at a surface, it would be at impact, if you are trying to break ribs, it would be a couple of inches in.

Impulse probably is a better approximation. In any event, for the answer to be "full," all the variables have to be "full." What everyone seems to be disputing is whether that is physically possible. That is not the issue that I brought up.

Kyoshi Roger Greene and I had this discussion a while back. I was of the opinion that I could hit harder when I slowed down because my timing was better. As are most of you. And, yes, most people need to slow down to hit harder. But Kyoshi's statement was: "When you can operate at full speed with no loss of power, you have realized your full potential for power."

I think we continue to approach that level. I am not sure anyone actually gets there.

 

[tellner]

Tighten up and you have muscles working against each other. Relax everything except what you are moving at that moment and you are faster and more efficient.

 

[MJS]

Folks,

I split these posts from the private lesson thread. This is a good discussion and I didn't want to take away from the other thread. Please continue any discussion about speed and power in strikes in this thread.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Xue Sheng]

You are probably right. Even if the whole body is moving the direction of the strike, and the end point timing is right, there is likely an antagonistic muscle hanging on somewhere, or the other hand chambering by moving the other direction.

But, I never said it was. Simply that, for their to be full power, the variables in the equation must also be "full."

Actually you did say that

Full power = total mass x top speed.

.

I agree. But you cannot slow down and hit full power. The key is in perfect mechanics and perfect timing. I doubt that the realization of real "full power strikes" is attainable. That is one of the reasons that 40 years later, people still hit the bag everyday.

good body mechanics, proper alignment and relaxation not necessarily full speed. But then I doubt we will agree here and that is fine.