hi , does anybody know what martial arts are taught in the british and american army?
thanks,
chris
thanks,
chris
special forces training
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Well, I wouldn't call what the US Army does a Martial Art. They combatives the are teaching right now are way to focused on ground work if you ask me. Somehow the Ft. Benning BJJ club got a lot of influence in the making of the new manual. Back when I was in, both Rangers and Special forces were mainly trained in the old Applegate/Fairbairn "WW II" style combatives. I'm pretty sure both SF and the Rangers still put a lot of emphasis on that.
I have no idea about what the Brits teach their soldiers for H2H.
Jeff
I have no idea about what the Brits teach their soldiers for H2H.
Jeff
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thanks , o remember readong somewhere about an army teaching muay thai , i think it was on google......
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
U.S. Army - modified BJJ + modified Tae Kwon Do
U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy - same as Army
U.S. Marines - as Army + modified Aikido + Mauy Thai + Kali.
The services also teach knive, bayoneted rifle, and pugel stick (think a long staff). But I'm not sure were they got it form. I have no idea what the Brits teach, but I imagine it's similar. Notice that the Marines teach the most. Why? Theres is more then just the good old fashioned "you learn it in boot camp, and that's about it". They have a defined ranking system (white, tan, green, brown, and then 6 degrees of black). When you go through boot camp you are trianed to tan belt. After that, learning more is optional. But you get points toward promotion, so folks have a reason to keep training.
And Jeff why would you not say that what the army teaches is not a martial art? The Marines even call there hand to hand combat program "Marine Corps Martial Arts Program" (or mcmap).
U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy - same as Army
U.S. Marines - as Army + modified Aikido + Mauy Thai + Kali.
The services also teach knive, bayoneted rifle, and pugel stick (think a long staff). But I'm not sure were they got it form. I have no idea what the Brits teach, but I imagine it's similar. Notice that the Marines teach the most. Why? Theres is more then just the good old fashioned "you learn it in boot camp, and that's about it". They have a defined ranking system (white, tan, green, brown, and then 6 degrees of black). When you go through boot camp you are trianed to tan belt. After that, learning more is optional. But you get points toward promotion, so folks have a reason to keep training.
And Jeff why would you not say that what the army teaches is not a martial art? The Marines even call there hand to hand combat program "Marine Corps Martial Arts Program" (or mcmap).
I'm curious about your sources...
As far as I know, only the USMC has an actual "martial art" approach to teaching their hand-to-hand combatives. (Google Marine Corp Martial Arts, and you'll surely find info on it.) It's a relatively new development, though the USMC has had a systematic approach to hand-to-hand for at least 15 or 20 years, under a few different names. I used to work with a former Marine who had been part of the team developing and teaching their Line Combat System (or something similar in name) in the mid to late 90s.
Otherwise, my understanding is that military hand-to-hand is like police defensive tactics. It uses some moves that are common to many martial arts, unified under some common principles and goals. For a cop, that's survival and getting the bad guy cuffed & stuffed; for a soldier, it's survival, and killing an enemy when you are forced to use bare hands. BOTH emphasize that going hands-on with someone isn't exactly the ideal goal... It's more something to do when the ideal situation has fallen apart.
The various special forces, as I understand it, just get more practice and more intense focus on using the hand-to-hand because they stand a greater chance than a "ordinary" soldier to actually have need for using them.
It's important to understand that military (and law enforcement) training doesn't really have time to teach much hand-to-hand, and that they're not going to devote a lot of their limited time to martial arts type defensive training. It's not their game... Beyond the standard training, many cops and many service members do seek out more advanced training on their own time. (This is where you get the people bragging about "teaching to law enforcement and the military" all too often... For law enforcement, if they're not a certified defensive tactics instructor, odds are very good that they're also not a formal training resource for law enforcement. I'd be willing to bet there are similar qualifications for military instructors.)
Oh... and as to pugil sticks... They're basically a combined aggression training/bayonet practice tool. The strikes and blocks used are the same as for bayonet, which is a very simplified spear system.
chinto01
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I know when I went through boot camp the hand to hand combat portion was a two day crash course which I thought was pitiful. But then again there was other things to get done also. When I went on to my second phase of training the hand to hand was a little more organized but that was because our Drill Instructor was a BB in judo. Thank goodness for my own training.
In the spirit of bushido!
Rob
In the spirit of bushido!
Rob
My kali instructor is a contract instructor for one of the SF groups. It is voluntary for the members, if they want to do it, they come to his classes for no charge, and he puts on a couple intensive weekends over the year that get more attendance. This is not systematic, it is just what this one particular group has decided to do.
Lamont
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What group if I may ask?
When I was in 5th, we had a few guys who worked with us ocassionally like that.
Jeff
19th SFG
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
A martial art is any form of self defense that can and has been passed on through the generations. Since all the serives have been teaching hand to hand combat for as long has they have been around, they are (by definition) martial arts. Though they are pretty much taught as an aggretion tool.
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Reserves or Guard? Or is that one of the ones that was NG or Reserves and is now active?
Jeff
Guard, but they have been active for several years now, or at least the elements that I interact with have been. I don't know much about their structure, it just isn't something we talk about.
Jeff, I agree. I was at Barnes and Nobles before my knee surgery. Anyway, I saw this book. I couldn't help but feel sorry for these guys. I did hand to hand and riot control in Haiti.....The last thing I wanted was to be on the ground.
MCMAP was evolved from the old L.I.N.E. system of the 80s and 90s. It isn't predominately ground based. I have a dan in judo so I am not afraid of ground work. It is just that it is bad to be on the ground with multiple attackers. Plus it is hard to roll with all that gear on.
Just a thought.
The marines run through a heavily BJJ based Basic Combatives program, and the MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial arts Program) is a seperate program intended to "encourage fighting spirit." LINE is no longer used in any branch of service, although it had some role in the development of the MCMAP.
Well, various elite special forces units have there own frequently changed H2H programs based around their needs and also use various contract instructors. For a while JKD's Tony Vunak worked with SEALs on the Easy Coast, and for a while MMA's Ken Shamrock worked with many west coast SEALs. In the past, many martial arts have been used briefly (including shotokan karate, hapkido, and a host of ecclectic systems), although from my understanding each one was short lived.
Unfortunately, many groups don't make any part of the H2H training public even after it is no longer in use, so that leaves us open to endless claims from people that they taught the SEALs, Delta Force, the SAS, or some made-up force no one has heard of in order to gain credibility with the gullible.
Agreed.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
US Army Combatives is a BJJ based program with some of the Applegate stuff still mixed in (mainly bayanette and knife).
It is important to remember that military hand-to-hand training is used more as a tool for building comradary, confidence, and "fighting spirit." This is seen by trainers as being more important then effectiveness, actually. This is why grappling based programs are more of a focus. It is not that pulling a combat knife or weapon of opportunity wouldn't be more effective on the field during the rare encounter where a firearm isn't deployable. It is that wrestling with each other is a great confidence, endurance, and team building exercise.
SOF (SF, MI LRS, Ranger, RECON, SEALS, etc.) may decide to pursue additional hand-to-hand training with the unit. This is usually done as OPTIONAL training outside of regular drills and exercises. Even when civilian instructors are "contracted" to teach these units, it is almost always done as an optional, or intermural programs.
It is important to remember that military hand-to-hand training is used more as a tool for building comradary, confidence, and "fighting spirit." This is seen by trainers as being more important then effectiveness, actually. This is why grappling based programs are more of a focus. It is not that pulling a combat knife or weapon of opportunity wouldn't be more effective on the field during the rare encounter where a firearm isn't deployable. It is that wrestling with each other is a great confidence, endurance, and team building exercise.
SOF (SF, MI LRS, Ranger, RECON, SEALS, etc.) may decide to pursue additional hand-to-hand training with the unit. This is usually done as OPTIONAL training outside of regular drills and exercises. Even when civilian instructors are "contracted" to teach these units, it is almost always done as an optional, or intermural programs.
To correct Rook....The Marine Corp's MCMAP is not heavily BJJ. It is more TKD, HKD, or Aikido styled. It is improved upon the L.I.N.E. system. More targeted towards belts coloring and a certain cirriculum.
The Marine Corps knows that going to the ground in a fight with gear on is stupid. Multiple attackers in war means you want to stay off the ground.
I am a Former Marine Corps Sgt., I served in Haiti, Albania, Liberia, Bosnia 2x. So I know a little about riot control, war and hand to hand. I also have a Gunnery Sergeant pal whose unit served with mine in Haiti cirra 1994. He showed me the MCMAP cirriculum, it is an improvement to L.I.N.E. which was all standup, I know I taught it as an instructor.
The Marine Corps knows that going to the ground in a fight with gear on is stupid. Multiple attackers in war means you want to stay off the ground.
I am a Former Marine Corps Sgt., I served in Haiti, Albania, Liberia, Bosnia 2x. So I know a little about riot control, war and hand to hand. I also have a Gunnery Sergeant pal whose unit served with mine in Haiti cirra 1994. He showed me the MCMAP cirriculum, it is an improvement to L.I.N.E. which was all standup, I know I taught it as an instructor.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Matt, what did you think of the old line stuff?
From what I remember, it seemed pretty cool to me. But some are very critical of it, and I am not knowledgable enough in that system to know why.
Since you used to teach it and are a Marine, it would be cool to get your opinion!
From what I remember, it seemed pretty cool to me. But some are very critical of it, and I am not knowledgable enough in that system to know why.
Since you used to teach it and are a Marine, it would be cool to get your opinion!
Matt, what did you think of the old line stuff?
From what I remember, it seemed pretty cool to me. But some are very critical of it, and I am not knowledgable enough in that system to know why.
Since you used to teach it and are a Marine, it would be cool to get your opinion!
Hand to hand combat is quick and clumsy when talking about average joe fights. Also combat is a group activity. The idea is like football almost start at point a and make it to point b. You certainly don't all day to have a fight so L.I.N.E was based off of groin strike, hammer fist strikes and joint take downs. Kicking was Muai Thai style with shin, inside thigh and knee kicking. The whole thing was designed to keep you standing and your opponent looking at the sky.
Great for fighting in a crowd, not the best one on one in a ring environment.
MCMAP is a definite improvement, but it is still.....you keep standing at all costs. I have seen far too many people get brutally damaged during a fight when they were on the ground looking at the sky.
