speaking chinese

[Xue Sheng]

Some tidbits:

In terms of written, there are Traditional and Simplified Chinese characters. Neither is connected to Mandarin or Cantonese -- those terms relate to spoken language. Cantonese speakers may prefer Traditional due to an avoidance of PRC-driven Simplified characters, but there's no rule that I know of. Both Mandarin and Cantonese speakers would see a character, and for the same meaning, pronounce it differently. They would both read and write the same character for "six", but one would say "liu" and the other "lok".) I was learning simplified for a while so I could read signs in Beijing, but you won't see those in traditional calligraphy, which I love. I'll probably learn to read signs and calligraphy, letting the simplified/traditional weighting fall where it may.

Most of the old-school Chinese who emigrated a while ago probably speak Cantonese, though more speakers of Mandarin emigrate now. I've had a hard time finding Mandarin speakers in Toronto, so I'll probably try to learn a bit of Cantonese, just to converse better with my Friday night Sifu.

A Cantonese-speaking gentleman once told me that the number of different words between Mandarin and Cantonese has crossed the threshold where the two can be called different languages -- not just dialects. I've found that sometimes there's a pattern driving the differences, sometimes not.

As with any language, practice in conversation is the key. And watching martial arts movies.

Back when I was actually a Chinese Studies major in college, just before my divorce made it impossible to continue I learned that what you are saying is quite true as it applies to dialects. You are more accurate using Chinese more like you would use Romance languages or Germanic languages. Many dialects in Chinese cannot talk to one another and they are much more like different languages with a shared writing system.

My wife understands Mandarin and reads both simplified and traditional (note if you read only simplified and try reading traditional there can be some very inaccurate translations). But she cannot understand a Cantonese speaker, a Shanghai speaker, a Sichuan speaker and there is even differences between mainland mandarin and Taiwan mandarin but she can understand a person from Taiwan. However just about everyone in their 50s and younger can speak Mandarin on Mainland these days.

Interesting note, my Mandarin, what little I speak, has a Beijing accent and what I find interesting is I can say something exactly like my wife to a Chinese person, not from Beijing, and they will not understand me but if my wife says it they understand her perfectly. I was once told by a coworker form Shanghai that she was shocked that I had a Beijing accent and was not focusing so much on what I was saying but on this meiguoren was speaking with a Beijing accent.

 

[oxy]

A Cantonese-speaking gentleman once told me that the number of different words between Mandarin and Cantonese has crossed the threshold where the two can be called different languages -- not just dialects. I've found that sometimes there's a pattern driving the differences, sometimes not.

Apart from the words, the idioms used in each dialect are different as well. I remember learning Cantonese 10 years ago in Australia where the teachers were actually using books for Taiwan Mandarin and I can't remember a thing because the way they speak using the same characters don't use the same vernacular.

I wouldn't go so far to say they are different languages.

But then, many people have quipped that English and American (or Australian) are completely different languages as well.

 

[Xue Sheng]

http://www.chinese-tools.com/

http://www.chinese-tools.com/learn/chinese/contents.html

 

[Yew]

Some tidbits:



As with any language, practice in conversation is the key. And watching martial arts movies.

Very true.I wasn't really a cantonese speaker until I watched wuxia which was so informative in giving animal names as well as weapon names and limbs etc which lead to me being able to converse more and more in cantonese.

It then helped me move to the next step in which if a mandarin language movie has subtitles, reading them would be easy since I already recognize words in the subs of cantonese movies and thus i then knew what the mandarin equavalient was.That was waaay so much more fun than just sitting in a dumb class learning Chinese words on how to eat rice or utensil or furniture names when I was 9.If the teacher could have spiced up the lesson and give me words like jian,dao or even nei gung to write repeatedly in boxes,i would have done it willingly.

 

[oxy]

http://www.mandarintools.com/dimsum.html


I forgot to mention this program I found a while ago.

It has a dictionary and pronunciation guide for mandarin and cantonese as well as a character writing recognition.

I used it to write up the LHBF Five Word Poem using that writing recognition with a mouse.

 

[clfsean]

Dim Sum is a great tool. I keep a copy on my desktop at home & laptop at work.

As far as the dialect/language differences between Mandarin & Cantonese & then even subdialects of the same languages, it's immense.

When I was in China in 2001, I went through several different provinces & the Mandarin all sounded different & was at times noticeably different from the Beijing stuff we'd all been working on. A lady that was with us lived in Taiwan for about 15 years, married a Taiwanese guy & all. She had problems with the local (Henan, Shaanxi, etc...) dialects. The Beijing wasn't so bad, but she got looked at funny when she spoke because she has a Taiwanese (Ming-nan) accent & pronunciation.

Cantonese is even worse. My Sifu's first teacher was from Toisan. So his Cantonese was whatever the dialect of Toison (don't know correct name) was. It's not the same as Hong Kong or even Guangdong dialect. Then his 2nd teacher was from a school descended from the Sun Woi dialect of Cantonese. His current teacher speaks with a SF/Hong Kong Cantonese dialect. They're all close enough to be really annoying to try ti pick out, but they're all different enough to get you yelled at if it's the wrong pronunciation on the wrong thing.

 

[mograph]

Heh. Given all this Chinese dialect stuff, imagine trying to run the place.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Heh. Given all this Chinese dialect stuff, imagine trying to run the place.

That's easy... make it MANDATORY for everyone to speak Mandarin ..

Seriously they teach Mandarin in all schools throughout China now. That and the writing system is pretty much the same throughout the country

 

[JadeDragon3]

Sign up for a class at a college/university near you. It may cost a little bit but its worth it.

 

[geezer]

there are many more differences between Cantonese and manderin than simply pronounciation. But the written language is the same.

A friend of mine did advanced graduate work in linguistics, so I asked him to explain the difference between "dialect" and "language". It turns out that there isn't a universal standard. In fact the terms are so biased and political that they are of minimal use. Some countries use the term "dialect" to deprecate languages spoken by ethnic minorities, such as in Mexico where Spanish, English, French, and so forth are languages (idiomas). But Native Americans are said to speak dialects (dialectos). In other countries, separatist groups will insist that they speak a separate "language" and cannot understand the national tongue. In these same countries, the majority group will insist that the difference is just a matter of "dialect" and they can easily understand the other, minority versions.

So apparently in the case of China, differences between Cantonese, Mandarin, and other regionally spoken toungues, are indeed enough to make them mutually unintelligeable, and qualify them as different languages. However the combined facters of a very long shared history, a common system of writing and the current political insistence on Chinese unity all combine to explain the use of the term dialect for these very distinct toungues.

So what does this all mean? Well as my old si-fu put it, all Chinese is very difficult for Westerners to learn, and he felt Cantonese was especially hard since it has more tones. Therefore, even though he was a Cantonese speaker from Hong Kong, he advised that if we really were determined to learn Chinese, then we should try Mandarin. And, after all, he said, speaking Chinese will not make your Kung fu better. Practice will.

Still...if I only had the time and brains...

 

[mograph]

Learn the one that you will expect to speak. If your Sifu and fellow students are from Hong Kong, learn Hong Kong Cantonese. If from Beijing, learn Beijing Mandarin. Taiwan, learn Taiwan Mandarin if you can.

I was learning Mandarin from a University course, but only knew one local Mandarin speaker. I know many more HK Cantonese speakers, so I decided to take up Cantonese, for what it's worth.

After learning Cantonese, will learning Mandarin (or vice versa) be easier? It depends on how you learn, and how you relate new concepts to old and keep different concepts sorted out. I like relating one thing to another (oh, Cantonese uses "hou" instead of "hao"), and after a few missteps, I can stay in one language once I get going. So far.

 

[furtom]

I just would add to this very good thread that it is hard to learn Chinese for most of us. Really, really hard!

I spent 3 years in Japan and had no trouble learning the language. Besides my knowledge of the basic characters (which changes anyway), almost NONE of my experiance in Japan has helped me in learning Chinese. It's just a whole 'nother thing. Chinese tell me I have such great pronunciation, but I am sure they are being polite because I can't understand anything they say beyond very slow and simple sentences.

Of course, you (we) can do it. But I would really recommend that you have access to a native speaker. (Which I am fortunate to have.) The software and tapes are great, but to really establish a firm footing, you need correction in pronunciation.

Finally, unless you have some specific need for the dialects, I'd say Mandarin is the way to go, no question.