sparring help needed

[CuongNhuka]

Ok so, I have a fun problem. I have great strikes, grappling skills, stick fighting, and kata. And I can come up with applications like it's nobodys buisness, and I have a great conditioning. However, I can barely spar my way out of a wet paper bag.
My Cuong Nhu Sensei is cross training in Wing Chun, and he has me a few other students do the hand drills. This is deffinitly helping my hand skills and my kicking force. But I still can barely spar my way out of a wet paper bag.
During my times of doing well, I do what in Cuong Nhu is called brocken rhythm. Basicly go at one rythm, then snap to anouther, then anouther. All in quick succesion. I also do alot of pseudo-dancing. Then close distance with a few high kicks. Then exit with a jump or flying kick. This works pretty for me.
Now getting to my question. Has anyone ever tried to do what is basicly Wing Chun, Filipino, and boxing hand strikes with salsa-esc dancing? Does anyone have any tips for me? Could anyone recommend a site/book that be of value (I intend on looking at some dance books and trying this out a little more indepth).

 

[Kacey]

I don't know about your specific question - but I will say that fighters who can change fighting style in mid-fight are the hardest to fight against, and it sounds like you have that part covered. Maybe you just need some more practice with a partner?

 

[CuongNhuka]

Seems like the obvious answer doesn't it? Well, unfortuntiy not working so well. I've been trying differnit stuff off and on for about 3 years this is really the only thing that works well consistently. Problem is it's draining. I get to the point were my body is at shut down mode pretty quickly. 3-4, 2 minute matches. (my school only does point matches if we have guests from anouther school participating).

 

[Andrew Green]

Well, I'm going to be honest, if you can't use any of it in sparring those strikes and grappling skills are not so great are they? Sounds like you got a case of too much working on form and theory, not enough on sparring.

I think you are looking for a answer in the wrong place, dance is not likely too help you, you need to look at fighting, and the theory behind it. You're complicating something that is complicated enough on its own.

What you need to be working on is footwork, not in terms of rythym or patterns, but in terms of angles and advantages. You need to work on combinations, not in terms of flow drills, but in terms of creating and exploiting openings. Punch to the face to open the body, punch to the body to open the face, etc.

 

[Blindside]

Ok so, I have a fun problem. I have great strikes, grappling skills, stick fighting, and kata. And I can come up with applications like it's nobodys buisness, and I have a great conditioning. However, I can barely spar my way out of a wet paper bag.

*blinks*

Something doesn't mesh here, I've never met someone who is a self-described "great striker/grappler/stick fighter" who couldn't spar. Since sparring is sort of fundamental to developing a title like that. I have met kata guys who this happens to but whatever.

Do you work angulated entries? Blitzing? Clinch work?

Why are you trying to learn to learn a figure 8 hip-swivel when you should be working on striking combos? I don't get it.

Lamont

 

[MJS]

Ok so, I have a fun problem. I have great strikes, grappling skills, stick fighting, and kata. And I can come up with applications like it's nobodys buisness, and I have a great conditioning. However, I can barely spar my way out of a wet paper bag.
My Cuong Nhu Sensei is cross training in Wing Chun, and he has me a few other students do the hand drills. This is deffinitly helping my hand skills and my kicking force. But I still can barely spar my way out of a wet paper bag.
During my times of doing well, I do what in Cuong Nhu is called brocken rhythm. Basicly go at one rythm, then snap to anouther, then anouther. All in quick succesion. I also do alot of pseudo-dancing. Then close distance with a few high kicks. Then exit with a jump or flying kick. This works pretty for me.
Now getting to my question. Has anyone ever tried to do what is basicly Wing Chun, Filipino, and boxing hand strikes with salsa-esc dancing? Does anyone have any tips for me? Could anyone recommend a site/book that be of value (I intend on looking at some dance books and trying this out a little more indepth).

When I spar, I am not trying to dance, or do anything that looks like a dance. The basic material is simple:

Boxing footwork: Having trained in the FMAs, I add in some of their basic footwork.

Punches: These are the standard jab, cross, hook, uppercut and a backfist.

Kicks: Standard kicks from my Kenpo training. Front, side, roundhouse, hook, and spinning back.

Of course, all of these are put into combos. Sure, there are times when I come in with a few quick combos, then back off a bit, mixing things up, but as I said, nothing fancy. I also work alot of focus mit drills.

Sparring is not something that happens overnight. There are no secrets, magic tricks to get better overnight or books, tapes or dvds that'll help. Getting in the ring and sparring over and over and over is the route to take.

Mike

 

[tshadowchaser]

Dance may improve your balance and footwork but the only way to get good at sparring is to spar often. Being able to move in a flowing dance pattern is nice but being able to block, strike, and/or throw while in a heated environment comes from contestant practice at sparring. Being able to change speeds will come alsofrom more practice in sparring not dance

 

[CuongNhuka]

Ok, you guys are completely missing every thing I have said. I'm not trying to do dance per-say. For some reason when i spar, if do pseudo-dance steps before I strike it tripps my opponent up (and not just the first few times I do it either). Now then, since it seems few of you acctuly read my posts, I've been trying for 3 years! And I'm barely any better. So, I'm sorry, but the nice direct stuff doesn't seem to be working for me, and Wing Chun + pseudo dance seems to be working.
So, let me put this anouther way. Has anyone tried useing Pseudo-dance steps while sparring? Have they left any tips along these lines? Can anyone recommed a good book on danceing. And if you are going to tell me to stop trying this out, please don't bother to reply. Everyone sparrs there own way, and this seems to be working for me.
So could you either help, or not bother. I'm not trying to be rude, and I know you're not, but it's kinda annonying to be working on something for 3 years, find somehting that works and have a few people say "just stop trying you knuckle head". Ohh, and the part about my striking and so on skills, it's what my sensei says. And he agrees that it's weird that I can do so well at everything BUT sparring.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Hey there brother, looks like you're frustrated.

Regarding dance. I met my wife when I was second dan, teaching full time and already a regional competitor. She's an avid ballroom and salsa dancer. Learning to dance improved my martial arts by an order of magnitude.

Regarding the well meant, if a little brusque, other posts. The theme of 'dude, if you can't spar, look to your basics' is absolutely valid. Perhaps they said it in a way that made it hard for you to want to listen -- but it's still good advice. One key to growth in the martial arts is being able to hear constructive criticism.

I would recommend (beside the dance lessons) getting a lot of reps in context of all your basics. Now I've never watched you train, but the situation you describe is pretty common when a student practices basics in one context and then spars in a more freestyle environment.

One and two step sparring drills should help you a lot here. Practice a brief flurry or piece of footwork in a sparring context over and over, like you do with other basics. Once you've turned several of those into reflex you'll find your sparring has improved immensely.

 

[Blindside]

So, let me put this anouther way. Has anyone tried useing Pseudo-dance steps while sparring? Have they left any tips along these lines? Can anyone recommed a good book on danceing. And if you are going to tell me to stop trying this out, please don't bother to reply. Everyone sparrs there own way, and this seems to be working for me.

Sounds like you have a plan, good luck with it, you are going to need it.

Lamont

 

[MJS]

Ok, you guys are completely missing every thing I have said.

Yes, this happens all the time on the internet. Please keep in mind that just because you read things one way, it does not mean that everyone else will.

I'm not trying to do dance per-say.

You stated this:

I also do alot of pseudo-dancing

Has anyone ever tried to do what is basicly Wing Chun, Filipino, and boxing hand strikes with salsa-esc dancing?

Looking at that, it should be obvious why you got the replies you did.

For some reason when i spar, if do pseudo-dance steps before I strike it tripps my opponent up (and not just the first few times I do it either).

Hey, if its working for you, great, but IMO, I can't see any reason to do fancy stuff during sparring.

Now then, since it seems few of you acctuly read my posts, I've been trying for 3 years! And I'm barely any better.

Out of curiosity, how much time have you put into the basics that were mentioned above? Have you been working on them 20 min, once a week, every day for a certain amount of time??

So, I'm sorry, but the nice direct stuff doesn't seem to be working for me, and Wing Chun + pseudo dance seems to be working.

Ok...then whats the problem? As I said, if its working fine, but I prefer to keep things simple.

So, let me put this anouther way. Has anyone tried useing Pseudo-dance steps while sparring?

No.

Have they left any tips along these lines? Can anyone recommed a good book on danceing.

No.

And if you are going to tell me to stop trying this out, please don't bother to reply. Everyone sparrs there own way, and this seems to be working for me.

So let me get this straight. You come onto a forum, asking a question. You get replies. However, you don't like the replies you get, so you tell people not to reply, if they're not going to say what YOU want to hear? Sorry, doesn't work that way.

So could you either help, or not bother.

Hmm...many people did offer great suggestions, however, the suggestions are not what YOU wanted to hear!

I'm not trying to be rude,

Looking at your last post, you sound rude to me.

and I know you're not, but it's kinda annonying to be working on something for 3 years, find somehting that works and have a few people say "just stop trying you knuckle head". Ohh, and the part about my striking and so on skills, it's what my sensei says. And he agrees that it's weird that I can do so well at everything BUT sparring.

Like I said before...sparring success does NOT happen overnight..PERIOD! There are no shortcuts aside from hard work! You can look at all the books and tapes you want, but there is a huge difference between reading what to do and actually being able to do it. You asked for suggestions, you got suggestions. However you did not like what you heard. If you're doing something that is now working for you, what is the problem?

Mike

 

[jks9199]

I'm not sure what's being asked.

You say that you "can't spar your way out of a wet paper bag." What's that mean? Do you mean that your opponent is hitting you before you can move? Or do you mean that you hit your opponent and nothing happens? Each is a different problem.

One thing I feel confident saying based on your post though... You don't have footwork. You have what we call "working feet." Your rhythm and timing are messed up; it's working for you sometimes, and tripping you up other times. I'd suggest working for a bit with a fixed rhythm instead of trying to do a broken rhythm. It's hard to "fix" something when it's changing all the time.

And... One more thing that I tell students. I can't fix something I didn't teach them; if they do something that we've never worked on or taught, it may or may not succeed. But I won't be able to correct or improve it.

 

[MrE2Me2]

Hello CuongNhuka,

The others have beat me to what I was gonna say here about basics.
(And no, I don’t use pseudo dance steps.)
But I’ll try a bit of a different tactic.

First, why do you spar?
If I have no motivation, my sparring is going to suck…period.
It isn’t enough for me to simply “throw and hope”.
“The Rule” applies always in sparring (that’s “big dogs bite and little dogs hide”).
If I’m not being the bigger dog emotionally, then I’m taking a beating (and that is not okay).

For example:
Now my wife is a diehard competitor.
When we play Scrabble, I can be 100 points ahead (literally) and she’ll still try with everything she has.
She goes right to the end and usually, over a period of a month we’re about even.
If I slack off, even a bit, it’ll cost me.

Second, when I’m sparring I make it a point to stay out of range unless I’m working.
I enter into range only when I’m attacking, defending or countering.

I’ll work my basics until they are reflexive elsewhere.
And then I concentrate on what my partner is doing.
I let my body take care of itself and keep my focus and concern on the other guy.

But again, if I have no or little motivation to be sparring, I will not do well.
When I’m sparring with someone I’m practicing to destroy or utterly dominate the enemy.
This keeps my sparring sharp and stops me from getting sloppy or arrogant.

Regards, MrE2Me2

 

[Andrew Green]

Why do I have this strange feeling that I'm gonna be sparring someone and then have this image of them attacking me with a Shakira hip shake now...

Anyways:

So let me get this straight. You come onto a forum, asking a question. You get replies. However, you don't like the replies you get, so you tell people not to reply, if they're not going to say what YOU want to hear? Sorry, doesn't work that way.

What MJS said. There is a lot of experience floating around here, and when everyone says this is not your best plan, they probably have a reason. Dance might work a little, but if you want to learn how to move study footwork as it relates to martial arts, not dance. Boxing has great footwork, have a look at that, and here are some basic ideas to think about:

http://innovativema.ca/forum/view.php?pg=footwork

But footwork in martial arts is a well refined thing, by those that understand it. Trying to reinvent the wheel here might work a little, but you'll not get very good doing it.

It's like if you where swimming, and struggling with the front crawl. SO you decide, forget that, I do better with doggie paddle. And you will, but you'll never win any races, for that you need to learn how to do the front crawl properly.

Dance is like doing doggie paddle, learn real footwork and you will be much better off, even if it takes a little longer to click in for you.

 

[Adept]

Ok so, I have a fun problem. I have great strikes, grappling skills, stick fighting, and kata. And I can come up with applications like it's nobodys buisness, and I have a great conditioning. However, I can barely spar my way out of a wet paper bag.

By definition, you do not have great strikes, grappling skills, or stick fighting.

What is your specific problem?

 

[Thesemindz]

Like I said before...sparring success does NOT happen overnight..PERIOD! There are no shortcuts aside from hard work! You can look at all the books and tapes you want, but there is a huge difference between reading what to do and actually being able to do it. You asked for suggestions, you got suggestions. However you did not like what you heard. If you're doing something that is now working for you, what is the problem?

Mike

You know, I'm curious what kind of sparring we're talking about here? Is it karate style point sparring? Grappling? Aikido style randori? MMA style full contact? Street style combat? I think knowing that would frame this discussion.

I can easily see how dancing in general would make you a better martial artist. It would help with balance, flexibility, footwork, timing, coordination, sensitivity to an opponent, etc. I'm not convinced that doing actual dance moves during a fight would do you any good against someone who actually knew how to fight. I'm reminded of students, and myself, jumping up and down, bouncing around, clapping and stomping. Those tricks are fun, and can be effective on an unexperienced fighter, but an experienced fighter sees right through them. He'll ignore the fancy moves, watch your hips and weapons, and then lay you out flat. Every time. Instead of using tricks to try to cut his line, I should spend more time lengthening my own.

If we're talking about karate style point fighting, especially with stoppages after each point scored, then I can see how some fancy footwork could help. If you can't beat them with skill dazzle them with bs. But if we're talking about street style combat or MMA style full contact, forget it. You ever see a heavyweight, in any combat sport, dance during a fight? I mean really dance? That's because it won't work against real fighters. If it did, we'd all be doing it.

That doesn't mean it doesn't work for CuongNHuka. And it might even help him get better. It might even help him get past the point where he needs dance steps to score points, but generally, I'll buy dance helps your fighting, I just won't buy dancing helps your fighting.


-Rob

 

[Blindside]

You
If we're talking about karate style point fighting, especially with stoppages after each point scored, then I can see how some fancy footwork could help. If you can't beat them with skill dazzle them with bs. But if we're talking about street style combat or MMA style full contact, forget it. You ever see a heavyweight, in any combat sport, dance during a fight? I mean really dance? That's because it won't work against real fighters. If it did, we'd all be doing it.

Heavyweight, I can't think of one. But Genki Sudo liked to do the Robot in the MMA ring, 'course he was a nut.

Lamont

 

[Andrew Green]

Heavyweight, I can't think of one. But Genki Sudo liked to do the Robot in the MMA ring, 'course he was a nut.

Lamont

Does this count?

[yt]m4dJRpgSyfk[/yt]

 

[Blindside]

Does this count?

I'm not even going to click on that, I think I can make out the dim outline of Patrick Swayze, which either means Roadhouse or Dirty Dancing. I really don't need to go there.

 

[Andrew Green]

No no, Jean Claude Van Damme in Kickboxer