sometimes i just feel like throwing my hands up and walking away from this job

[Tgace]

Not a bad metaphor. Two quick points. First, with the metaphor, we need to both manage the weeds we have and also prevent new weeds from growing.

Regarding the thread, there's a big difference between what you and I are talking about, and returning to the "good old days" when the police were, in some places, little more than the "enemy we know."

Agreed...on all counts.

 

[SavageMan]

Once again I point out as I did before that certain people within our society would rather make excuses for the criminals than hold them accountable. Life is hard, there are a lot of people out there who grew up poor and who had to fight for everything they've got. But that is still no excuse for criminal behavior. The point I'm trying to get across is until we as a society take action and publicly hold these monsters accountable for their actions it will only get worse. You will never change a wolfs nature to prey upon the flock. But if you hang a wolfs hide on a post the wolf will stay clear of the flock. Extreme times sometimes call for extreme measures. We lost two State Troopers last week and a Deputy from one county over less than a year ago here in West Virginia. Where is the call for justice for them. Instead you turn on the Internet and see a picket line where a know drug dealer and meth addict blew his own brains in the back of a cruiser. Now there is a civil suit pending against the department for his death. One less I got to watch. With statements like " We have a lot of stupid *** laws on the books that are clogging up the system" that kind of mentality you take into consideration the criminal more so than the victim. That is as much of the problem as any prosecuting attorney or sleaze bag defense attorney

I agree. As I said, we can do better. But, in my opinion, "better" means looking at where the crime is coming from and cutting it out at the root, but we've talked about that in other threads. Once again, I absolutely believe that things can improve. But when someone suggests that the answer is lengths of fire hose, rope and a sturdy tree branch, aren't you a little concerned?

Ballen, part of the problem is also that our jails and prisons are full. Overall, our streets are safer than at any other period of time in our country, but we have more criminals than ever. We have a lot of stupid *** laws on the books that are clogging up our justice system, and entire demographics that are basically raised to participate.

 

[Steve]

Once again I point out as I did before that certain people within our society would rather make excuses for the criminals than hold them accountable. Life is hard, there are a lot of people out there who grew up poor and who had to fight for everything they've got. But that is still no excuse for criminal behavior. The point I'm trying to get across is until we as a society take action and publicly hold these monsters accountable for their actions it will only get worse. You will never change a wolfs nature to prey upon the flock. But if you hang a wolfs hide on a post the wolf will stay clear of the flock. Extreme times sometimes call for extreme measures. We lost two State Troopers last week and a Deputy from one county over less than a year ago here in West Virginia. Where is the call for justice for them. Instead you turn on the Internet and see a picket line where a know drug dealer and meth addict blew his own brains in the back of a cruiser. Now there is a civil suit pending against the department for his death. One less I got to watch. With statements like " We have a lot of stupid *** laws on the books that are clogging up the system" that kind of mentality you take into consideration the criminal more so than the victim. That is as much of the problem as any prosecuting attorney or sleaze bag defense attorney

I want to be very sure I understand what you're saying. You think I'm part of the problem and indirectly culpable in the murders of police officers?

It's clear that you have strong feelings and are very close to this issue, but the point I was making before and will try to make again more clearly is this. You're not doing yourself any good by overstating your position.

 

[Steve]

I've given it a little thought and maybe this will make it more clear.

SavageMan, you say this: "There was once a two part solution to things like that. It was called a tall tree and a short rope. Sometimes I wonder if we weren't better off before all this politically correct BS when civil disobedience was solved with a fire hose and neighborhoods were kept in check by officers who weren't afraid of some ******** law suit."

And then you say this: "But that is still no excuse for criminal behavior."

Isn't lynching people, even people whom you believe are criminals, murder? Do you think that the law doesn't apply to you? Or are you suggesting that it's not murder or assault when you do it because you're doing it for the right reasons?

 

[ballen0351]

Just a report from the funeral today for a man that gave his life for his community. Amazing show of support at least 300 police cars from several states, another 100+ police motorcycles few dozen fire trucks. Ofc Taylor was a member of a police motorcycle club there were another 100+ bikes from his club. His wife and kids thanked each of us as we stood and saluted her. She was thanking us we should have been thanking her for her sacrifice. Taps played and 21 guns saluted and not a dry eye in the house. There children were so strong and brave standing by the casket.

 

[ballen0351]

And on that note I'm going to go home now hug my wife and kids tell them.I love them and just be with them. Good night all

 

[ballen0351]

MD lost another officer last night. Aberdeen Police Officer Charles Armetta RIP bad week in MD for law enforcement

 

[oftheherd1]

Apparently ones who have no clue.

I haven't looked at the location. Some places still think poorly of police, even local police. They may also fear local bad guys. I don't know if either is at play or not. It may even be an incompetent prosecutor. Sad if it is one of those.

Sad and disapointing story. I think it would be time for the loacal government to pass a law.

If you mean against posting such a sign, it would be difficult, although probably not impossible. The problem would be in 1st Amendment rights of free speach in federal court, or even possibly in the State Court.

What a sad story. Its a shame....these punks should be rotting the rest of their life in a cold cell, never seeing the free world! Oddly enough, if it were the police who did this, oh, look out...all hell would be breaking loose. Look at all the trouble that happens when the military posts pics of dead bodies.

Now, so there's no misunderstanding, I'm not saying that what the military does is right, in regards to posting pics of dead bodies, I'm simply saying that we've all seen the issues that have arisen. how any lawyer or jury, could say that its ok for these guys to keep the pics up...well, thats ****ed up!

Pleas be careful in your choice of words. The military does not post photos of dead bodies to my knowledge and hasn't for quite a long time. News media does. Military personnel not following regulations may submit them to the media, or send them to relatives who submit them to the news media. "The military" does not.

The officers mom did take them to civil court and won a 5 million dollar judgement for wrongful death but the brothers said they won't pay her a dime.

She could presumably take them back to court for a forced judgement against any property the brothers own. If permitted under the State laws, she might prefer to sell the judgement to a third party corporation or business that would not be an easy target for the brothers.

 

[Instructor]

I lived in Kingston TN for a few years. I can honestly say this story doesn't surprise me. Thanks to OP for posting it, I'll share it.

 

[oftheherd1]

Apparently ones who have no clue.

Sad and disapointing story. I think it would be time for the loacal government to pass a law.

What a sad story. Its a shame....these punks should be rotting the rest of their life in a cold cell, never seeing the free world! Oddly enough, if it were the police who did this, oh, look out...all hell would be breaking loose. Look at all the trouble that happens when the military posts pics of dead bodies.

Now, so there's no misunderstanding, I'm not saying that what the military does is right, in regards to posting pics of dead bodies, I'm simply saying that we've all seen the issues that have arisen. how any lawyer or jury, could say that its ok for these guys to keep the pics up...well, thats ****ed up!

I agree. As I said, we can do better. But, in my opinion, "better" means looking at where the crime is coming from and cutting it out at the root, but we've talked about that in other threads. Once again, I absolutely believe that things can improve. But when someone suggests that the answer is lengths of fire hose, rope and a sturdy tree branch, aren't you a little concerned?

Ballen, part of the problem is also that our jails and prisons are full. Overall, our streets are safer than at any other period of time in our country, but we have more criminals than ever. We have a lot of stupid *** laws on the books that are clogging up our justice system, and entire demographics that are basically raised to participate.

No doubt we can do better. But what is better? How do we prevent having to put people in jail? My two cents is that it has to start in the home. Kids have to be taught respect.

Respect for their home, their teachers, their neighbors, others' property, law. We don't do that anymore from what I see. Kids are taught be TV programs and other kids that it is OK to do only what 'you' want to do. Snide or flat out disrespect to parents or teachers is OK since they don't have a clue about anything important, especially the all-knowing youth of today.

Also, I salute you. How wonderful to live where it is safer than any other time in history. That hasn't been my experience, sorry to say. I guess we have lived on different streets.

 

[Steve]

No doubt we can do better. But what is better? How do we prevent having to put people in jail?

Jackpot questions right there.

My two cents is that it has to start in the home. Kids have to be taught respect.

I would take it back a little further and say that I agree with you in that it has to start with KIDS. Does it have to start at home? Well, great if the kids have a "home," but it sets us ("us" meaning society at large) up for failure because it depends upon something that we already know millions of kids don't have: a home. And if we open that up to include kids who do have a "home," but for whom the home better resembles Thunderdome than a nurturing, safe place for kids to learn to become productive, healthy, and happy members of adult society.

I understand that "respect starts at home" is a common turn of phrase, but in this case it is, I believe, a dangerous one. Dangerous because it fails to confront the reality that many of the kids who grow up to become criminals are doing so precisely because they have no home, or their home is broken in some fundamental manner.

So, what's my point? More to come on my next break.

 

[oftheherd1]

Strange! Part of the things I tagged to reply to above in my previous thread, seem to have been added here. I didn't retag them so I don't know why.

But since I am again replying, may I suggest the metaphor of dandelions is a little flawed. If you were pulling them out of your yard and isolating them somewhere they could not have contact with your lawn or anyone elses, but were otherwise taken care of; maybe. But you are killing them in your metaphor, not what I think you want as a solution for criminals, no matter their offense?

Again the added tagged items from both posts. At least by going to advanced I saw them and took them out.

 

[Steve]

I started a new thread. The topic seemed to be drifting to crime and its prevention and would be better suited in the Study. Also, this is getting pretty far afield from the original post, particularly considering the somber nature of the OP.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...ther-topics-culled-from-Law-Enforcement-forum

 

[MJS]

I agree. As I said, we can do better. But, in my opinion, "better" means looking at where the crime is coming from and cutting it out at the root, but we've talked about that in other threads. Once again, I absolutely believe that things can improve. But when someone suggests that the answer is lengths of fire hose, rope and a sturdy tree branch, aren't you a little concerned?

Ballen, part of the problem is also that our jails and prisons are full. Overall, our streets are safer than at any other period of time in our country, but we have more criminals than ever. We have a lot of stupid *** laws on the books that are clogging up our justice system, and entire demographics that are basically raised to participate.

You're correct, and in many cases, criminals are let out early, and go right back to a life of crime. Its a big revolving door. IMO, one of the main issues, is the 'country club' atmosphere' to many of the jails/prisons out there today. Perhaps if it was a bit more miserable, the desire to live the life they do, wouldn't be. Then again, when the BHC (Bleeding Hearts Club) says the inmates have rights too, well, thats half the problem there.

 

[MJS]

No doubt we can do better. But what is better? How do we prevent having to put people in jail? My two cents is that it has to start in the home. Kids have to be taught respect.

Respect for their home, their teachers, their neighbors, others' property, law. We don't do that anymore from what I see. Kids are taught be TV programs and other kids that it is OK to do only what 'you' want to do. Snide or flat out disrespect to parents or teachers is OK since they don't have a clue about anything important, especially the all-knowing youth of today.

Also, I salute you. How wonderful to live where it is safer than any other time in history. That hasn't been my experience, sorry to say. I guess we have lived on different streets.

You're right. Kids learn what they live. I grew up in a LE family, and learned to respect the law. What is better? Dont know. How do we stop people from going to jail? Make it a miserable place. Lock them up for 23 out of 24hrs a day. You come out for 1hr, and then right back in your cell. I dont know about you, but if that was me, I'd certain hate it.

 

[Tez3]

Everyone focuses on the 'bad' families etc but often the lack of respect for police officers comes from respectable, nice, hard working people who are otherwise thought to be the ideal repsonsible adults. Stop someone for speeding and/or breathalyse them and see the abuse that comes out of otherwise respectable people! Especially if these nice respectable people are actually drunk, for some reason it's the police officers fault...'can't you go and chase some real criminals'. A great many people are supportive of the police until they are caught doing something they shouldn't then the police are 'fascists', if the police don't stop tearaways or vandalism then they are 'useless, waste of time, I don't know what we pay taxes for', all this said in front of the children who are otherwise taught to be respectful etc etc. To some, who should know better the police are just there to harass them and get insulted as such, I had a taste of that on MT today of that. I won't go into it more but it was from someone who otherwise is respectable and should know better but for many a police officer is a red rag to a bull and it's not always the people you think it is, not the gang members or layabouts but the family man who is delayed because of traffic and sees a police offcier 'not doing anything about it'. Sure people get frustrated, they fell guilty at being caught out doing something they shouldn't but why take it out on the police officer?

 

[MJS]

I haven't looked at the location. Some places still think poorly of police, even local police. They may also fear local bad guys. I don't know if either is at play or not. It may even be an incompetent prosecutor. Sad if it is one of those.

Oh, I'm sure people do think poorly of the police. Thats nothing new. However, if the PD, lawyers, judges, etc, have that much fear instilled in them by the locals, well, thats a problem, if you ask me.

Pleas be careful in your choice of words. The military does not post photos of dead bodies to my knowledge and hasn't for quite a long time. News media does. Military personnel not following regulations may submit them to the media, or send them to relatives who submit them to the news media. "The military" does not.

My apologies for the wording. What I meant was....there have been numerous times, when members of the military, have been photographed, desecrating bodies of the deceased. For example.

 

[ballen0351]

Another WTF moment
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/ex-militants-who-admit-killing-cops-seek-parole-n32221

"If you want to talk about justice, it's been served," said Anne Lamb, the New York City co-chairwoman of The Jericho Movement, a group that advocates for political prisoners. "They have no reason to hold them in prison. It's not going to bring back Officer Piagentini or Officer Waverly Jones."

Not only are they guilty of killing 2 NY officers but pled guilty to killing a San Fran officer and got probation.