Some more thoughts on "anti grappling".

[yak sao]

The entire idea of WC grappling is as ridiculous as the idea of BJJ chi sau. I would never presume to suggest that BJJ could chi sau better than a WC guy.

Which is precisely why WC uses an "anti grappling" approach.
Is a bazooka equal to a tank? No, it's simply an anti-tank method that a foot soldier uses in a desperate situation.

How is an anti grappling approach any different?
We know that the ground is no place to be...why do I want to stay in a grappling scenario with someone who is obviously better at it than I am.
I would do that no more than I would trade punches with a golden gloves boxer or leg kicks with a Thai boxer.

Everyone seems to be all bent out of shape because they think we are saying we can beat any and all grapplers because we are calling it anti grappling. "Anti" simply means to oppose, to fight against. It's a way of a WC man trying to level the playing field a bit when he ends up on the ground so he can survive the situation and regain his feet.

 

[mook jong man]

What if your opponent is based out? You're the dude who goes on and on about stance and being rooted. You can't keep your stories straight.


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Based out means his legs are apart , kick him in the groin then.

 

[Hanzou]

Which is precisely why WC uses an "anti grappling" approach.
Is a bazooka equal to a tank? No, it's simply an anti-tank method that a foot soldier uses in a desperate situation.

How is an anti grappling approach any different?
We know that the ground is no place to be...why do I want to stay in a grappling scenario with someone who is obviously better at it than I am.
I would do that no more than I would trade punches with a golden gloves boxer or leg kicks with a Thai boxer.

Everyone seems to be all bent out of shape because they think we are saying we can beat any and all grapplers because we are calling it anti grappling. "Anti" simply means to oppose, to fight against. It's a way of a WC man trying to level the playing field a bit when he ends up on the ground so he can survive the situation and regain his feet.

Anti-grappling implies that you're using this against a grappler. If it was called Wing Chun Groundfighting, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. However, this is being advertised as something to do against an opponent attempting to grapple with you. Considering that I've seen videos where they're actually fighting someone in guard position, its pretty clear that they're including Bjj in that group as well.

If you want to learn how to fight on the ground, learn from someone who actually knows what they're doing. The spirits of the dead Wing Chun grandmasters won't kill you if you do a little cross-training.

 

[Vajramusti]

If you want to learn how to fight on the ground, learn from someone who actually knows what they're doing. The spirits of the dead Wing Chun grandmasters won't kill you if you do a little cross-training.

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Your comments imo may apply to some wing chun folks and not others.

The structure and dynamics of good wing chun provides solutions to grapplers coming in and if you happen to be on the ground.

 

[yak sao]

Anti-grappling implies that you're using this against a grappler. If it was called Wing Chun Groundfighting, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. However, this is being advertised as something to do against an opponent attempting to grapple with you. Considering that I've seen videos where they're actually fighting someone in guard position, its pretty clear that they're including Bjj in that group as well.

If you want to learn how to fight on the ground, learn from someone who actually knows what they're doing. The spirits of the dead Wing Chun grandmasters won't kill you if you do a little cross-training.

Yes we do some things against BJJ type of attacks because that is a very effective form of grappling, we would be stupid to ignore it in the hopes that we're never put on the ground by a BJJ fighter.

The thing is, I like Wing Tsun. I don't desire to cross train. I have no time as it is to train WT as I would like. So why should I cross train a little grappling to delude myself into thinking that I can now grapple with the big boys.

The approach I choose to take instead is test my WT against people who do know how to grapple. I have several buddies who train judo, BJJ, catch wrestling, etc. It's the same approach I take to dealing with boxers. I have a couple of friends who box, so we get together when we can and glove up...not so I can out box him, that would get my *** kicked in a hurry. But so I can test my WT against what he does.....anti boxing....*GASP*

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So don't come on here and bloody tell us that kicks from the ground don't work , they might not be that effective in sports grappling land where no one wears shoes.
But out in the real world where you have shoes on , and you have the know how to to do these kicks properly , they work just fine.

For the record, kicks from the ground are an excellent tool. I teach them, I use them, and I recently had a student of mine use them effectively for fending off a knife-wielding robber. I primarily teach them as a tactic for establishing distance to safely regain your feet, but they can be fight-enders.

They don't always work. Depending on your opponent's stance and tactics, it can sometimes be a lot safer to use an open guard to protect yourself and reverse the position.

With regard to the video linked earlier, my concern is that the instructor was applying his control, kicks, and sweep in an inefficient and low-percentage manner, with lots of little details off that left him way more open for getting hurt than is necessary. If he had just kept his legs coiled up and kicked for his opponent's shins and groin every time he came near, I wouldn't complain.

 

[drop bear]

Ok , so you do get punched from this attempted sweeping position.

Then maybe wouldn't it make a little more sense , to keep both your feet pointed straight towards him so he can't even get to your head at all.
And use both your legs to keep him at bay and blast kicks into his knees , shins , and groin

Why stuff around trying to even grab the arm , or grab the leg?
Both of your strongest weapons are already pointed at him , why not use them for something other than placing them in his hip.

I am not safe from being punched while bycicle kicking either. And because in a kick off he controls the range and so has the advantage.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes we do some things against BJJ type of attacks because that is a very effective form of grappling, we would be stupid to ignore it in the hopes that we're never put on the ground by a BJJ fighter.

The thing is, I like Wing Tsun. I don't desire to cross train. I have no time as it is to train WT as I would like. So why should I cross train a little grappling to delude myself into thinking that I can now grapple with the big boys.

The approach I choose to take instead is test my WT against people who do know how to grapple. I have several buddies who train judo, BJJ, catch wrestling, etc. It's the same approach I take to dealing with boxers. I have a couple of friends who box, so we get together when we can and glove up...not so I can out box him, that would get my *** kicked in a hurry. But so I can test my WT against what he does.....anti boxing....*GASP*

And there's nothing wrong with that.

The problem arises when you proclaim to be an expert, and begin marketing your solutions to the public as true methods to fight off grapplers. You rake in money while teaching people garbage that has little practical application in the real world. That's what these guys are doing, and that's why they deserve the ridicule they're getting.

If you wish to only study Wing Chun, more power to you. However, if you're concerned that you may be at a disadvantage against a grappler, keep doing what you're doing with your grappler friends, or go learn some grappling yourself. The very fact that you're actually working out with grapplers put you well ahead of the bozos in those vids.

 

[Buka]

You guys may need to pound the keys harder. Maybe that will settle the arguement.

 

[Hanzou]

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Your comments imo may apply to some wing chun folks and not others.

The structure and dynamics of good wing chun provides solutions to grapplers coming in and if you happen to be on the ground.

So the good Wing Chun practitioners don't make Youtube instructional videos?

 

[Argus]

So the good Wing Chun practitioners don't make Youtube instructional videos?

I thought I posted a few, but I guess they don't count.

Really, it seems like everyone is only interested in arguing at this point. My answer is "STFU and train" -- Train Wing Chun. Train grappling. Train Wing Chun against grapplers. Any unrealistic notions will be quickly dispelled, and you'll get far more benefit than you will from arguing notions and semantics on the internet. And just maybe, dispel ignorance on both sides of the issue.

From reading this thread, I can't help but marvel that elitism among grapplers is just as bad as elitism among WC practitioners. Put them together, and you have some awful stubborn head butting going on. Or you know, a very well rounded fighter, if you can get past that first bit.

 

[geezer]

So the good Wing Chun practitioners don't make Youtube instructional videos?

Quite so. Neither Yak, Joy (Vajramusti), Mook, nor I have made any such anti-grappling videos yet, so there's proof!

Hanzou, you have to realize that some WC "enterpreneurs" have a lot vested in marketing WC as the "ultimate" martial art with an answer for every situation. So they market this stuff to any who will buy it. It's all about business and ego.

I have a different view. I have students who are not grapplers and never will be. They seem innately uncomfortable rolling on the ground. I don't fully understand it, since even though I'm not skilled, I think it's a total blast. Anyway, that's the way they are, so I try to show them a few simple things they can do to survive a fall, sweep or throw, to keep from getting mounted or to escape a mount, and to create distance and stand up again.

I guess you could consider this a low level "self defense course" for the ground-fighting impared WC stylist. Just like any crash-course in self-defense, it has serious limitations. In a few classes can you really train a timid and fearful 110 lb. woman with no long-term interest in martial arts how to defend herself against a large aggressive street-thug? Probably not (although Mook's wife apparently came out OK).

So, in a short time can you really train a "ground fighting impared" WC student how to survive when taken down? Maybe. But I'm not placing bets on it. I've had other students who really take to ground fighting. What I know is too limited, so I refer them to another gym (run by a friend) that has some great grappling coaches. And, funny thing, I've never lost the respect of a student by admitting my limitations and referring them to another coach.

 

[geezer]

...From reading this thread, I can't help but marvel that elitism among grapplers is just as bad as elitism among WC practitioners. Put them together, and you have some awful stubborn head butting going on. Or you know, a very well rounded fighter, if you can get past that first bit.

Hey, it's all just human nature. But by comparison to some of the heated arguments and outright character assassination on another WC forum I used to frequent, this lively discussion is pretty enjoyable. I actually learn stuff here!

 

[Steve]

Which is precisely why WC uses an "anti grappling" approach.
Is a bazooka equal to a tank? No, it's simply an anti-tank method that a foot soldier uses in a desperate situation.

How is an anti grappling approach any different?
We know that the ground is no place to be...why do I want to stay in a grappling scenario with someone who is obviously better at it than I am.
I would do that no more than I would trade punches with a golden gloves boxer or leg kicks with a Thai boxer.

Everyone seems to be all bent out of shape because they think we are saying we can beat any and all grapplers because we are calling it anti grappling. "Anti" simply means to oppose, to fight against. It's a way of a WC man trying to level the playing field a bit when he ends up on the ground so he can survive the situation and regain his feet.

I think you're completely missing what I think. I totally understand that there is a specific emphasis and philosophy that you have which is different than in a grappling tournament or MMA match. The problem isn't the philosophy. It's the dangerously unrealistic techniques and pugnacious refusal to accept sound technical advice that gets me.


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[yak sao]

which is why I try this stuff out on actual grapplers and get their feedback

 

[Hanzou]

Quite so. Neither Yak, Joy (Vajramusti), Mook, nor I have made any such anti-grappling videos yet, so there's proof!

Hanzou, you have to realize that some WC "enterpreneurs" have a lot vested in marketing WC as the "ultimate" martial art with an answer for every situation. So they market this stuff to any who will buy it. It's all about business and ego.

I have a different view. I have students who are not grapplers and never will be. They seem innately uncomfortable rolling on the ground. I don't fully understand it, since even though I'm not skilled, I think it's a total blast. Anyway, that's the way they are, so I try to show them a few simple things they can do to survive a fall, sweep or throw, to keep from getting mounted or to escape a mount, and to create distance and stand up again.

I guess you could consider this a low level "self defense course" for the ground-fighting impared WC stylist. Just like any crash-course in self-defense, it has serious limitations. In a few classes can you really train a timid and fearful 110 lb. woman with no long-term interest in martial arts how to defend herself against a large aggressive street-thug? Probably not (although Mook's wife apparently came out OK).

So, in a short time can you really train a "ground fighting impared" WC student how to survive when taken down? Maybe. But I'm not placing bets on it. I've had other students who really take to ground fighting. What I know is too limited, so I refer them to another gym (run by a friend) that has some great grappling coaches. And, funny thing, I've never lost the respect of a student by admitting my limitations and referring them to another coach.

Again, the problem isn't you guys, or your art. The problem are those charlatans sullying the art of Wing Chun with that anti-grappling crap. You have the confidence and humility to admit that you don't have all the answers, so you allow your students to explore other possibilities to get those answers.

The guys in those videos aren't doing that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Most of the "anti-grappling" discussion are in the "ground game". We also include the "stand up game" as well such as how to counter a

- Judo guy's "hip throw", or
- wrestler's "single leg".

After all, you do have to take your opponent down before you can play your ground game. IMO, a striker should worry about the "stand up game" before he should worry about the "ground game".

 

[Vajramusti]

A sensible post. If you don't have top level wing chun stand up game-the rest wont matter.

 

[Steve]

which is why I try this stuff out on actual grapplers and get their feedback

Really? Mook has categorically denied that this is possible. I think you're being very sensible to do this, but surely you can understand my confusion when you guys say exactly the opposite.


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[Hong Kong Pooey]

You guys may need to pound the keys harder. Maybe that will settle the arguement.

Chain typing?

My money's on the WC guys.