Some Interesting Views On Kata

[MJS]

I found this article on the Kajukenbo Cafe. Thought it was pretty interesting. I thought we could discuss everyones views on it. I posted it here, so as to not limit the discussion to one particular group. So, I'm looking for feedback from everyone...Parker, Tracy, Kaju.

 

[JWLuiza]

Not a Kenpo guy here, but I like some of the thoughts. A Kata should be reinforcing what you already know. I LOVE the idea of training in a live environment and then learning the Kata later as an encapsulation of what you know. I think many people are going down this thought process.

I see where some of the comments of drawing the hand back to the hip come from, but I bet if they realize that only should occur if you have something in your hand and it is helping you hit harder because you are pulling your opponent into the other hand's strike.

Looking forward to the Kenpo guys putting their .02$ in (and Kenpo girls)

 

[K-man]

I hope this thread doesn't get hijacked like my recent kata thread as this is an interesting source. The opinions posted pretty much match the sentiments expressed on MT. There are those that see no value in kata and those like myself who see kata as the true essence of karate and essential to it's teaching. Most people are somewhere in between, probably the younger practitioners at the sceptical end and the older ones gravitating to the other.

The katas/forms are necessary to connect us with the history of our art, and the arts that make up what we do. As instructors, it isn't right to water-down what our students are able to offer once they become Instructors. They should teach everything to every student, as our teachers did for us, and allow their students to pick-and-choose their own personal styles. Not every student will become a teacher. Some students need the real-world combat effective training that Kajukenbo has to offer. That's why they chose KJK instead of some other art.That is why I wait to such a late point in their training to introduce the katas. If the student is going to be a teacher, they need to know it all, understand it all, and be able to teach it all, even if they don't personally use it all!

Not being familiar with KJK I wouldn't comment as to the right time to begin training kata but, in Guju, I believe the sooner the better. I agree wholeheartedly the the sentiment if the section I highlighted. Without passing on the traditions of a style, within two or three generations there will be no style.

I must admit though, most of my discoveries (light bulb moments) come bass ackwards. I'll find that something I did worked well in a fight and when I analyze it I see it was a move right out of a form - I just didn't see it for what it was at the time I was doing the forms. This fuels my curiosity to discover applications for other moves from the forms that seem strange or useless (looking beyond the obvious). I find many of the light bulb moments for me come not from the individual moves themselves but applications of the transitions between the moves (where most of the "JU" lives).

And herein lies a great truth. When we start out we do not link the kata to real fighting. Once the light bulb comes on we look for more and more applications within kata. (It took many years to light my lightbulb!)

The true applications of the movements in most traditional forms are no longer known and really haven't been for a few hundred years. I think that's a safe assessment of the forms in Kajukenbo as well. While some of us may understand the movements better than others, I do not believe all of the applications will ever really be known. Heck, I know some teachers who don't care what the applications are. They just want the student to do the form correctly with intensity and focus.

Doesn't this sum up everything? I'm just enjoying the voyage of discovery.

 

[seasoned]

(I don't want to learn 1000 techniques, but teach me a few principles that I can USE in 1000 techniques.) And, here in lies the value of the kata of old. I give you 12 Okinawan GoJu kata, or any traditional kata, and you give me the base for 12,000 techniques. All techniques are built off of a foundation, and that foundation is KATA. Many dismiss kata in their youth, for sparring and cool moves, only to fine in their later years, the kata that was a hindrance, has become an "old friend".:asian:

 

[seasoned]

Not a Kenpo guy here, but I like some of the thoughts. A Kata should be reinforcing what you already know. I LOVE the idea of training in a live environment and then learning the Kata later as an encapsulation of what you know. I think many people are going down this thought process.

This above statement is good, in my style we learn the kata first, build a strong foundation, and explored a little later down the road. I have no problem either way.

I see where some of the comments of drawing the hand back to the hip come from, but I bet if they realize that only should occur if you have something in your hand and it is helping you hit harder because you are pulling your opponent into the other hand's strike.

And much more. :asian:

 

[seasoned]

The true applications of the movements in most traditional forms are no longer known and really haven't been for a few hundred years. I think that's a safe assessment of the forms in Kajukenbo as well. While some of us may understand the movements better than others, I do not believe all of the applications will ever really be known. Heck, I know some teachers who don't care what the applications are. They just want the student to do the form correctly with intensity and focus. .

Doesn't this sum up everything? I'm just enjoying the voyage of discovery.

Yes my friend, your above comment to the above statement, IS the true heart of this thing we do, called Traditional Martial Arts.

:asian:

 

[scottie]

Many dismiss kata in their youth, for sparring and cool moves, only to fine in their later years, the kata that was a hindrance, has become an "old friend".:asian:

So true I was a product of a McDojo for almost 10 years I was promoted to 5th Dan in this art. I began learning the busness aspect of the school about five years ago. When I had a pontental student from another in town came in for a "inturductory free private lesson" (my teacher loved for me to do them because in two years I had a 100% sell rate) and asked me what katas we taught. When I told him we don't teach that junk because it does not teach you how to fight in the real world. He looked at me and said you don't teach karate and your five stripes are a joke, then left.

When I told my teacher that he made some comment about fighting and beating that guy up and quickly changed the subject. I told I wanted to learn katas and he said we don't teach that crap. if you want to learn the you need to go to my old teacher.

So I did it was the best move I ever made this guy had tracable lineage and I learned more in one class than I learned in 7 years in the McDojo.

After over 4 and a half years I have earned my first degree Black Belt. I have fallen in love with kata, and thank God every day for that guy coming into my school. Kata has taught me so much. It is awesome. O I also learned that my first teacher that wore a 7th dan had only just been promoted to brown belt when he opened his school.

 

[MJS]

Well, I fall in the middle of the road on kata. I do them, and I teach them. We're supposed to learn from our mistakes, so when I teach someone a kata, I always give at least 1 breakdown of what the moves are. There was a time, way back, when I first started training, that I was not shown any breakdowns. IMO, I feel that its important for someone to at least have 1. Some will disagree, saying the student should figure it out themselves. Thats fine too, providing what they come up with makes sense, otherwise, they're no better off than someone who has a teacher that can't give them a breakdown either.

I feel that while we'll never fight someone like we would in a kata, we should be able to take a part from somewhere in the kata, and apply it to SD. For example...take Parkers Short Form 2. The opening move is stepping forward, right inward block, right outward knife hand. Now, that move alone, I can:

1) Move forward as designed in the kata, and block a punch.

2) Move forward and use the block as a strike to the head.

3) Move back and defend against a punch.

4) Move back and defend against a choke or lapel grab.

So right there, you have 4 possible options, and I'm sure there're more.

On the flip side, I also feel that people need to do what GM Harper said in the article, and get in the ring and fight. When I say ring, I'm not talking about the UFC, but thats an option if someone wants to, but get in and fight/spar, on a regular basis. IMHO, there are things that sparring can do, that the kata cannot. Again, thats just my opinion.

My current Kenpo teacher and well as one of my Arnis teachers, are not mega fans of kata. Yes, they teach them, yes, they give applications behind them, but they also put alot of focus on the fighting as well.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

i always try to imagine the bunkai, and any hidden moves within them, like, why did i turn my foot , and shift my weight this way? Could it be i am sweeping a potential attacker's leg?
Think kata starts us all on a path, and, keeps us enlightend and also always learning as we continue to practice them.

 

[K-man]

I feel that while we'll never fight someone like we would in a kata, we should be able to take a part from somewhere in the kata, and apply it to SD.

On the flip side, I also feel that people need to do what GM Harper said in the article, and get in the ring and fight. When I say ring, I'm not talking about the UFC, but thats an option if someone wants to, but get in and fight/spar, on a regular basis. IMHO, there are things that sparring can do, that the kata cannot. Again, thats just my opinion.

Until recently I had never seen kata performed other than as Kihon Kata. This is the basic form you see performed in competitions, demonstrations and in all gradings, and demonstrates stance, strength, focus and basic techniques. Regardless of the complexity kihon kata is the basic level and as you rightly point out we would never fight like that. From there it speeds up, the movements change slightly because of the increased speed and the kata becomes martial and very effective.
Sure within the kata are the different applications we can extract and train, but the kata itself can be used in its entirety if we are taught how. Personally, I doubt I will become that proficient but I am certainly trying to reach a new level. At that level performing the kata, with a partner, is sparring.
Another thing we need to take account of is that karate, kung fu etc. were not developed to fight other martial artists. It was to offer the practitioner a means of defence against untrained assailants, within their community, not competition. Unless you are into the sports side of things, you are not really learning to fight other martial artists. If you want to do that, that's fine but you're better off looking at MMA, MT, boxing etc and forgetting the kata. (TKD is a different animal because it is primarily focussed on sport.) My feeling is that even the sparring we do is counter productive because we spar as one martial artist against another.
In aikido we don't spar as such and often derogatory comments are made about the wussy attacks (mostly justified). However, to test the aikido we need a reality based full on attack as you might expect to encounter on the street, not another fully trained martial artist looking for an opening to attack. IMO that is why it is pretty pointless trying to compare the different MAs as to which one is better than the other. I believe that all MAs should give us a reasonable measure of protection and peace of mind as we go about our daily routines. Within any style there will always be someone who can beat someone else, from another style, in a competition. That doesn't make one style better than another, it just makes one martial artist better than another. :asian:

 

[LawDog]

A Kata is made up of multiple "one vs one" techniques that are connected together by transitional techniques. These transitional techniques / moves change the "one vs one" into a "one vs multiple" opponent situation.
With this in mind it is my opinon that a student should first learn basic "one vs one" techniques. After developing a basic understanding of the "one vs one" a student should then be taught transition footwork / techniques. After this a complete Kata can be properly taught and understood.
For a beginner it is difficult enough to understand and execute a "one vs one" technique never mind a "multiple" situation.
Just my point of view, no hijack intended.

 

[JWLuiza]

I find it unlikely that Kata are meant to be a way to train against multiple attackers, since a 2 on 1 is not the same as 1 on 1 and then another 1 on 1. But I'm not sure if that is your point or not....

 

[seasoned]

I find it unlikely that Kata are meant to be a way to train against multiple attackers, since a 2 on 1 is not the same as 1 on 1 and then another 1 on 1. But I'm not sure if that is your point or not....

Interpretations differ from one style or art to another. In Okinawan GoJu many of the 90 degree turns are actually throws as opposed to facing another opponent. Also some of the 45 degree turns are used for unbalancing or uprooting an opponent. Just some thoughts. :asian:

 

[LawDog]

Kata teaches you how to turn so as to align properly towards another opponent. It also helps you to develope the floor clock and your personal clock.
To train for a multiple attack you need to train against live multiple attackers.
Except for their minor tacticle transitional applications, 1 vs 1 is the same as 1 vs 3.
Transitional - this is not restricted to footwork only.

 

[seasoned]

Well, I fall in the middle of the road on kata. I do them, and I teach them. We're supposed to learn from our mistakes, so when I teach someone a kata, I always give at least 1 breakdown of what the moves are. There was a time, way back, when I first started training, that I was not shown any breakdowns. IMO, I feel that its important for someone to at least have 1. Some will disagree, saying the student should figure it out themselves. Thats fine too, providing what they come up with makes sense, otherwise, they're no better off than someone who has a teacher that can't give them a breakdown either.

There has been a love/hate relationship in regards to kata forever. I feel once kata are understood, they can be practiced with a whole new outlook. I will speak for my art specifically. Sparring, which is used sparingly in Okinawan GoJu, is generally done in three ways, (1) stop and start when a "killing blow" (tongue in cheek), has been determined, (2) continuous movement with light contact, (3) gloves on, with foot pads, and heavy contact. The above (3) are a progression. If we try to fit kata into this progression we find it hard to do, and so it is dismissed as somewhat useless. Now, kata, is not a progression, but is made up of many finishing techniques grouped together. These finishing techiques within kata involve a first contact with a grab/strike, slam down, finish. Kata were not designed to look fluid and flowery, just to get the job done. Self defense/ martial arts, in it's inception was never meant to spend a lot of time with one opponent as in sparring, but in the case of one or more, to move swiftly and violently, as in KATA. No one is asking us to love kata, but to see it for it's worth, and to get a glimse of what it was intended for. With this mindset established, now, grab a partener, put some protective gear on, and start dissecting those kata, for the real deal. IMHO :asian:

 

[K-man]

Kata teaches you how to turn so as to align properly towards another opponent. It also helps you to develope the floor clock and your personal clock.
To train for a multiple attack you need to train against live multiple attackers.
Except for their minor tacticle transitional applications, 1 vs 1 is the same as 1 vs 3.
Transitional - this is not restricted to footwork only.

Don't know anything about Kenpo so wouldn't comment on multiple attackers within that style. IMO it is not the case on Okinawan Goju. We look for one attacker and the various turns denote angle of attack, takedowns and in some instances moving behind your opponent. I'm with JWL and Seasoned in this one. There is nothing to say that one attacker could not be replaced with another but I don't believe any of our kata provide for multiple attackers attacking at the same time. :asian:

 

[TimoS]

Don't know anything about Kenpo so wouldn't comment on multiple attackers within that style. IMO it is not the case on Okinawan Goju. We look for one attacker and the various turns denote angle of attack, takedowns and in some instances moving behind your opponent. I'm with JWL and Seasoned in this one. There is nothing to say that one attacker could not be replaced with another but I don't believe any of our kata provide for multiple attackers attacking at the same time. :asian:

Pretty much the same with us, as I've come to understand it. The way I understand the turns and doing the same techniques again from different side is that we're mainly taught the same "scenario" but against someone attacking e.g. with a left instead of a right. Mind you, I'm not quite sure why we, in some kata at least, repeat the technique for a third time.

 

[seasoned]

Pretty much the same with us, as I've come to understand it. The way I understand the turns and doing the same techniques again from different side is that we're mainly taught the same "scenario" but against someone attacking e.g. with a left instead of a right. Mind you, I'm not quite sure why we, in some kata at least, repeat the technique for a third time.

What follows the third time is the ending of the technique not shown in the first two times. Right, left, right/finish. IMHO :asian:

 

[Shifu Steve]

I feel once kata are understood, they can be practiced with a whole new outlook.

Agreed. I've posted before that in previous efforts to recruit students I found there to be a general reluctance to learn kata. I myself shared that reluctance but was lucky enough to have a teacher that taught and explained seamlessly. Once I understood that the kata was a physical manifestation of a series of concepts that were the root of technique, things began to fall into perspective. I can't say how long it took me to come to that realization but there was definitely an element of trust involved. Trust for the teacher in the sense that the kata was worthwhile to learn. Of course the application of specific examples of technique went a long way toward solidifying that point. However as Seasoned wrote earlier, it can take a significant part of the martial arts journey to reach the point where you see its true value. I currently actively run 3 forms. I find so much technique in those 3 that I am totally satisfied with the practical applications of those concepts, for now at least. I run the rest of my forms for maintenance in the case that I need to go back to the reference for some new ideas. I also run them out of respect for being taught in the first place and for tradition. Trying to communicate what kata are for is easy in lipservice but I find it's something that really has to be experienced by the martial artist. Some information is revealed through work and time.

 

[kungfu penguin]

ive always been told that the essence, and in some cases the secrets of the art are hidden in kata once you learn those katas and understand them , if you practice said katas you will never lose or forget the essence of the art--tom