So when did grappling get involved?

[profesormental]

Hi!

I agree that Wing Chun is not fixed techniques...

NOte that there are several ways to learn... and each helps the other...

make inductions from specific examples of executions... (teach examples of what can be done) and to teach principles that dictate tactics and strategy (control centerline, economie motion, etc.).

Both are valid ways to teach, and some people learn better one way tahn the other. I'm sure we've all encountered such situations.

I've argued and lectured on economy of motion, but until some of my students see examples, it's hard for them to get it... same for others that don't get it with 100 examples, but if I explain the principle, they get it right away...

so as a SiFu it's my job to instruct both...

Thanks for the observation.

I also agree that all postures are transitory, I jsut pointed out an example where I've used it to control someone on the floor and pinning him with a Yeung Ma...

I do however state that MMA training is good for maintaining Dominance and Control over opponents. It's however NOT most efficient as an urban survival method.

Fights do not occur in a vacuum. A match is a special contest. Self preservation/self defense/combat has many other strategic considerations that are not addressed in jut a match/prize fight.

Does that make sense?

So training must incorporate those considerations like environment, legalities, level of force and harm to obtain objective (dominate or maim, or worse for dire situations). or not if you're not interested...

The question is why are you training and what is important for you about it?

If you want to go around beating people up, or you want a fun healthy way to develop your skills taht will last a lifetime and may save your life... without becoming all consuming in your life...

To the Gracies, this is their life... this is one of their legacies... something admireable and something I would be proud to achieve someday... just that I'm the only one in my family with the inclination to go that way!

Remember that the Warrior in this society has a peculiar place... loathed and praised when needed... then loathed as violent and brutal... instead of practical and determined. The status as a family that they have achieved is waht marial artists should strive to achieve.

again, Street Brawler, thanks for the observations and discussion.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado

 

[Street Brawler]

Hi!

I agree that Wing Chun is not fixed techniques...

NOte that there are several ways to learn... and each helps the other...

make inductions from specific examples of executions... (teach examples of what can be done) and to teach principles that dictate tactics and strategy (control centerline, economie motion, etc.).

Both are valid ways to teach, and some people learn better one way tahn the other. I'm sure we've all encountered such situations.

I've argued and lectured on economy of motion, but until some of my students see examples, it's hard for them to get it... same for others that don't get it with 100 examples, but if I explain the principle, they get it right away...

so as a SiFu it's my job to instruct both...

Thanks for the observation.

I also agree that all postures are transitory, I jsut pointed out an example where I've used it to control someone on the floor and pinning him with a Yeung Ma...

I do however state that MMA training is good for maintaining Dominance and Control over opponents. It's however NOT most efficient as an urban survival method.

Fights do not occur in a vacuum. A match is a special contest. Self preservation/self defense/combat has many other strategic considerations that are not addressed in jut a match/prize fight.

Does that make sense?

So training must incorporate those considerations like environment, legalities, level of force and harm to obtain objective (dominate or maim, or worse for dire situations). or not if you're not interested...

The question is why are you training and what is important for you about it?

If you want to go around beating people up, or you want a fun healthy way to develop your skills taht will last a lifetime and may save your life... without becoming all consuming in your life...

To the Gracies, this is their life... this is one of their legacies... something admireable and something I would be proud to achieve someday... just that I'm the only one in my family with the inclination to go that way!

Remember that the Warrior in this society has a peculiar place... loathed and praised when needed... then loathed as violent and brutal... instead of practical and determined. The status as a family that they have achieved is waht marial artists should strive to achieve.

again, Street Brawler, thanks for the observations and discussion.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado

Excellent saying Sifu Juan, Thanks for your kind attention :ultracool :supcool: , hope to hear from you soon on another topic.

 

[Si-Je]

Quote: Andrew Green
My point was that all systems, whether they admit it or not are goverened by a set of rules, even if they are not laid out as such. Assumptions are made about what will be done, how it will happen, what will be involved, etc.

I disagree. I’ve trained WC for three years, and there are no set “rules” or patterns of fighting that we adhere to. Sure we drill “how to” scenarios, like how to deflect a hook punch, or roundhouse kick. But once the basics are drilled and learned almost all of our drills are working on adapting to spontenaety, flowing with an opponent when their next move is unexpected. Chi Sau drills this flow. You don’t know what your partner is going to do next. That’s the whole point, they could kick, pivot into or away from you, latch, punch, chop, elbow whatever.. You must react without anticipating and thinking. This is not a drill with set rules or patterns. WC is not restricted to rules and patterns. That is it’s genius and simplicity.

In response to the earlier statement about anti-grappling(I don’t like this name, it doesn’t seem to fit the techniques); I’ve noticed their seems to be a lot of misunderstanding with these techniques. Done properly you apply WC principles and technique to the ground fighting.
We train Chi Sau on our back while an opponent is in the mount position, deflecting and striking at the same time. But, I haven’t seen anyone elese do this. We chain punch the “grappler” while they are in the mount position on top. But the true key is to keep the grappler out from between your legs. Using the WC basic stance(in an augmented form) while on your back, you can keep a larger, stronger opponent’s full weight off of you, and keep them from getting past your knees, where they need to be to choke, strike, etc.
Now, of course a wrestler or a grappler on your side is big trouble too. We work the centerline theory to keep this from happening on the ground. Just like when your standing doing WC, you use the same techniques on the ground deflecting, kicking, punching, and body movement all at the same time to protect yourself.
WC does have joint locks incorporated in the art, it’s just not totally depended upon like ju-jitsu. If we can break and arm or wrist, we do it. If the opponent slips out, we chain punch until something better comes along or until their finished. Adaptation.
I have a strong background in Japanese Ju-Jitsu and was taking this art when the Gracies came about. I understand “grappling” (we never called it grappling, it was just ground work, and only small part of the ju-jitsu training)I just don’t agree with much of the Brazilian methods. Even in Ju-Jitsu your ultimate goal was NOT to go to the ground right off the bat. Ground work is what you did if you ended up there after throwing someone, if they took you by surprise, etc. Most of our joint locking techniques were executed while standing. This ground fighting fettish has enlightened a lot of martial artists in the need for well rounded training, and exposed the general public to another sport. Which is good. But to depend wholly on grappling as the end all to be all is not good.
And the truth is that most kung fu styles don’t even deal with the ground unless you train Suai Shau (can’t spell it) or Chinese wrestling. So, the techniques have always been there, just that Sifu’s and teacher’s didn’t teach it because most people weren’t interested until the Gracies made it popular.

 

[Flying Crane]

Quote: Andrew Green
My point was that all systems, whether they admit it or not are goverened by a set of rules, even if they are not laid out as such. Assumptions are made about what will be done, how it will happen, what will be involved, etc.

I disagree. I’ve trained WC for three years, and there are no set “rules” or patterns of fighting that we adhere to. Sure we drill “how to” scenarios, like how to deflect a hook punch, or roundhouse kick. But once the basics are drilled and learned almost all of our drills are working on adapting to spontenaety, flowing with an opponent when their next move is unexpected. Chi Sau drills this flow. You don’t know what your partner is going to do next. That’s the whole point, they could kick, pivot into or away from you, latch, punch, chop, elbow whatever.. You must react without anticipating and thinking. This is not a drill with set rules or patterns. WC is not restricted to rules and patterns. That is it’s genius and simplicity.

Except that these people with whom you are training are also Wing Chun people. This means they are versed in Chi Sao as well, and automatically will fall into certain patterns. I think this is what Andrew was referring to. The "rules" exist, even if you don't realize it. Simply training and drilling with people from your own style establishes rules and assumptions about how things will happen. You all think the in the same way, about things. The only way to get out of this is to train with people from other styles. But then, they don't know how to do Chi Sao, and it makes it difficult to work with that kind of drill.

 

[ed-swckf]

Quote: Andrew Green
My point was that all systems, whether they admit it or not are goverened by a set of rules, even if they are not laid out as such. Assumptions are made about what will be done, how it will happen, what will be involved, etc.

I disagree. I’ve trained WC for three years, and there are no set “rules” or patterns of fighting that we adhere to. Sure we drill “how to” scenarios, like how to deflect a hook punch, or roundhouse kick. But once the basics are drilled and learned almost all of our drills are working on adapting to spontenaety, flowing with an opponent when their next move is unexpected. Chi Sau drills this flow. You don’t know what your partner is going to do next. That’s the whole point, they could kick, pivot into or away from you, latch, punch, chop, elbow whatever.. You must react without anticipating and thinking. This is not a drill with set rules or patterns. WC is not restricted to rules and patterns. That is it’s genius and simplicity.

Wing chun does have governing rules and principles. Just take a look at the kuen kuit for a vast ammount of rules for wing chun training. I.e the wing chun maxims that suggest things like "Retain what comes in, send off what retreats. Rush in on loss of hand contact." and "Do not be lax when your opponent is not advancing" and "The body follows the movement of the hands. The waist and the stance move together" and "Charge into the opponent. Execute three moves together" and "Strike any presented posture if it is there. Otherwise strike where you see motion. Beware of sneak attacks, leakage attacks and invisible centerline attacks" and "Coordinate the hands and feet. Movement is together"

These are just a quick few taken from the wc maxims and of course are open to individual interpretation to some extent but wing chun does have rules underlying it and making it to an extent uniformed. Everyone does it different but you should be able to see the underlying principles of wing chun at work and thats what governs it and makes it so. You are right in saying that you don't know what is next but chi sau does have rules regarding pressure and structure, for example lut sau jic kuen. This is a reaction without out thinking but its also a rule just not the rules that perhaps you are envisioning. Rules can be subtle and underlying and not be about thinking at the moment you have to react but rather a rule in which to make a reaction a valuable one. It is a simple art although there is much to master and the rules change and change again which i'm sure you are begining to find with your 3 years. I think we all attach a certain stigma to the idea of rules and see them as restrictive but the rules allow for less restriction they allow for us to be adaptive to many a situation.

With all that said there is also familiarity and complacency to contend with in any training group. I remember i used to chi sau with the same group of guys when i first got into chi sau and when i jumped in with guys i was less familiar with it showed me that my training, whilst governed by underlying rules, its down to the individual to master those rules in relation to him/her self in order to be able to apply them to every opponent. Now theres a challenge! None of that means you are rigid and clunky with your wing chun, you can still flow in fact its all these "rules" that help you flow and react without slowing.

 

[Si-Je]

I agree with you ed. I think that many WC stylists over anylze the art and sometimes it becomes confusing. We've had students come from other schools that train set patterns and drill sets and when they train with us the enjoy the impromtu way of training we incorporate.
But many of that was mentioned earlier as "rules" is in truth "methodology" and technique. We've seen that many schools only spar and train with other WC stylists, that's why we encourage other stylists to come and train with us, BJJ, MMA, TKD, JKD, Kempo, and we get invited by other schools to do free sparring on the weekends and such for practice in free sparring for both schools.
We really have better repore with martial artists in other arts than in kung fu because we are friendly and open to different arts. This keeps our students sharp and experienced in different forms of attack.
We also compete in even a couple of A.O.K. tourneys anything that has continuous sparring. Really not there to "win" so much as to give the students the experience of fighting against an unknown attacker from a different style. LOL! our students do well and usually win the fight but lose the match because of WC's chain punching. We've found that they are unfamiliar with it and deem it as "wild punching" and don't call the points. After the matches other students from the tourney usually ask about taking lessons. It's kinda weird. But we just truely go for fun, and to give our students valuable experience.

 

[yipman_sifu]

our students do well and usually win the fight but lose the match because of WC's chain punching. We've found that they are unfamiliar with it and deem it as "wild punching" and don't call the points. After the matches other students from the tourney usually ask about taking lessons. It's kinda weird. But we just truely go for fun, and to give our students valuable experience.

Do you mean your students win or lose by chain punching?

 

[Ali Rahim]

A lot of times when i see a WC video i always see grappling involved. Just wondering, has it always been there or was it just added in recently?

This will happen because the stance is weak, and by not having a strong understanding of the stance, you will resort to your most natural resources, which is strength. Therefore mixing muscle with muscle hence grappling. Which in true essence is tossing wing chun clean out of the window, making true understanding of softness and sensitivity void within your wing chun studies.

 

[Si-Je]

Do you mean your students win or lose by chain punching?

I ment that the students lose the A.O.K matches because the judges don't know what chain punching IS. They do not count them as strikes, although the opponent is punched out of the ring several times, and they are striking the opponent in the same spot. They deem the punching "wild punching."
The strikes counted are hammer fist strikes to the top of the head. These are the only way our students' get points counted against them or for them. Very weird experience. I tried to explain to the judges what Chain punching was, but they didn't want to hear it. It was a good lesson for the students in the politics of MA, and the general ignorance about WC.

 

[Selfcritical]

This will happen because the stance is weak, and by not having a strong understanding of the stance, you will resort to your most natural resources, which is strength. Therefore mixing muscle with muscle hence grappling. Which in true essence is tossing wing chun clean out of the window, making true understanding of softness and sensitivity void within your wing chun studies.

Because there's definately no technique in submission wrestling or BJJ, i mean, it's not like the whole purpose of the gi is to keep you from being able to just muscle out of a pin. There's definately no use of leverage, sensitivity to your opponents movement, or strategy involved.

/end sarcasm

 

[Si-Je]

Ouch! But this is all really not nessasary. You don't need to throw all WC out the window, or use BJJ to defend against a grappler. There are plenty of alternatives. The entrance used by BJJ is pretty predictable, easy to read and simply countered.
If you can't avoid a take down, go with it, and use their strength to re-direct, and deflect them. Just like when standing using WC concepts.
On the ground stance is cruital too. We use the basic stance while on our backs on the ground to keep the opponent off us. Works like a charm!

 

[bcbernam777]

But you are trying to, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. what you are claiming is that wing chun dueling techniques are equally effective under MMA rules.

And I will conceed that they work nicely under Wing Chun rules, but in MMA they do not, and everyone that has tried to show they do has been taken down.

Same as many boxing techniques and strategies do not work in MMA, but that does not take away their effectiveness or value in boxing. What works in MMA doesn't always work in Boxing either, even when you look at just punching.

Chain punching and Chi sau work in Wing Chun, not in MMA. Two different games, different games, don't confuse them. Now when it comes to self-defence I got no idea which is better, it can't be tested. Both have shown to be effective and that's all that I know.

Beyond that it is a matter of preferance, which do you prefer? I'm guessing that for you that is Wing Chun, which is fine, I respect that. BUT, don't assume that your stuff works under other rule sets, if it did people training under those rules would be using it.

I have had MMA'ists spar with me, and frankly, WC holds a lot of answers, I had one guy at a party who found out I did Wing Chun, declared it to be crap, told me about his training background (MMA) and then promptly made a fool of him self when he tried to catch me of guard and get me in a grapple, only to have me utilise principals both from Chum Kui and Bui Jee to have him sitting in the hosts flower pot looking a touch sheepish. As I have stated in about 1000 others post, wing chun holds answers for grappling or infact for anything else that mma throws at us. The question is are you trained against it, and do you understand it, have you understanding about the system to make it work. Look Andrew we all know you have a hard on for grappling which is fine, but I always find the lean of your posts in the Wing Chun section a little "MMA is the best in world" mma has its own flaws and weaknesses as much as any other art. And seeing as how you have neither trained extensivly in Wing Chun nor do you understand it it is probably best if you kept your comments to what you understand.


And by the way "Two different games, different games" only in UFC and pride is fighting a game, only in competition is fighting a game, in real life, its a very different animal, there are no rules, no if or then, only what is, and I would dare say in my lifetime I probably wont get in a rumble with one of the gracies any way, so we dont need to keep talking about them as they are the unbeatable Titans of the Universe, because as Shamrock displyed they clearly are not. The fact of the matter is they have a game plan, now everyone knows it. Their power simply came from the ignorace of those around them. That ignorance is now dispelled as is their power, simple.

 

[Si-Je]

And by the way "Two different games, different games" only in UFC and pride is fighting a game, only in competition is fighting a game, in real life, its a very different animal, there are no rules, no if or then, only what is, and I would dare say in my lifetime I probably wont get in a rumble with one of the gracies any way, so we dont need to keep talking about them as they are the unbeatable Titans of the Universe, because as Shamrock displyed they clearly are not. The fact of the matter is they have a game plan, now everyone knows it. Their power simply came from the ignorace of those around them. That ignorance is now dispelled as is their power, simple.

Very good post! I remember the Shamrock and Gracie fight, that was in the early UFC years (back when I used to watch it regularly). Shamrock was an american wrestler and very experienced. I also remember that Gracie never fought anyone that studied Japanese Ju-Jitsu, or wrestlers (until Shamrock) in the first UFC's. He only got to fight stylists that didn't study any ground fighting at all. They just made it popular in the States, the whole ground fighting thing. Most people here aren't very familiar with other arts, the mainstream styles (TKD, kickboxing/Muy Tai, Bjj now days and MMA, boxing, Judo) are all people really are familiar with.

We teach Wing Chun here in Texas, and most people have never even heard of it. So what we come accross is while trying to educate people about WC we get asked questions about BJJ. And how we defend against it, and how it is so practical. Very irritating sometimes. For, it isn't practical for the street (or anywhere but a ring with rules).

It's the trend now, the fad in America and unfortunately american's are ruled by the media. So to teach people WC we must change minds, or elese get fresh minds that don't know anything about the other arts. Those are our best students because they are open and free of preconcieved notions on how fighting "should" be done.

UFC has a profound affect on people here, they act like it's the ultimate test of a styles effectiveness, which is the great illusion. The rules of UFC are molded around BJJ and grappling to make it more effective. If it really was "realistic no holds barred fighting" people would be allowed to punch the back of the neck of a grappler that comes into a fighter head first exposing the spine, or knees to the face as the try to grab the legs. Just as an example. A good heel kick to the teeth will take down a man coming into grapple a Wing Chun practitioner. All you need is Grade 1 and Grade 2 techniques, very simple stuff. But this is not allowed either. So how can they claim that what they show is "no holds barred?" Because they speak of submission holds, litterarly, not striking.

We use the anti-grappling techniques for the ground and they have proven to be extremely effective against grappling, wrestling, BJJ, etc.
I've taken Japanese Ju-Jitsu for years before my WC training, and being familiar with "grappling" concept have found that the anti-grappling is nothing short of brilliant even in it's most simple form. But you won't see it in UFC because the rules deny most of it's technique. Maybe in Pride contests. That stuff is more realistic than UFC for sure, and they allow for more technique.

 

[Andrew Green]

Very good post! I remember the Shamrock and Gracie fight, that was in the early UFC years (back when I used to watch it regularly). Shamrock was an american wrestler and very experienced.

Shamrock was American, But he was a Japanese shootfighter, and at the time "King of Pancrase"

I also remember that Gracie never fought anyone that studied Japanese Ju-Jitsu, or wrestlers (until Shamrock) in the first UFC's.

Sure he had. The Gracie Challenge goes back farther then the UFC.

 

[Andrew Green]

I have had MMA'ists spar with me, and frankly, WC holds a lot of answers, I had one guy at a party who found out I did Wing Chun, declared it to be crap, told me about his training background (MMA) and then promptly made a fool of him self when he tried to catch me of guard and get me in a grapple, only to have me utilise principals both from Chum Kui and Bui Jee to have him sitting in the hosts flower pot looking a touch sheepish.

That's ok, but anecodtal evidence goes both ways, so without some controls and other info in place, it is rather meaningless.

Look Andrew we all know you have a hard on for grappling which is fine,

No, I'm more of a striker to be honest

but I always find the lean of your posts in the Wing Chun section a little "MMA is the best in world"

MMA is the best in the world... for MMA fights.

mma has its own flaws and weaknesses as much as any other art.

That it does.

And seeing as how you have neither trained extensivly in Wing Chun nor do you understand it it is probably best if you kept your comments to what you understand.

Now I suppose this should go both ways should it not? That you should keep your opinions on MMA to yourself?

Of course if everyone just kept there opinions to themself on every subject that they lacked 10-20 years experience in this would ber a message board of a dozen people talking to themselves with no intereaction....

And by the way "Two different games, different games" only in UFC and pride is fighting a game,

How about the "Leitai" fights of China where the old masters fought to see who was the best under a set of rules. Guess those where just a game too and had no real value either? But didn't many styles of Kung Fu proove themselves through those?

 

[Rook]

Very good post! I remember the Shamrock and Gracie fight, that was in the early UFC years (back when I used to watch it regularly). Shamrock was an american wrestler and very experienced. I also remember that Gracie never fought anyone that studied Japanese Ju-Jitsu, or wrestlers (until Shamrock) in the first UFC's. He only got to fight stylists that didn't study any ground fighting at all. They just made it popular in the States, the whole ground fighting thing. Most people here aren't very familiar with other arts, the mainstream styles (TKD, kickboxing/Muy Tai, Bjj now days and MMA, boxing, Judo) are all people really are familiar with.

We teach Wing Chun here in Texas, and most people have never even heard of it. So what we come accross is while trying to educate people about WC we get asked questions about BJJ. And how we defend against it, and how it is so practical. Very irritating sometimes. For, it isn't practical for the street (or anywhere but a ring with rules).

It's the trend now, the fad in America and unfortunately american's are ruled by the media. So to teach people WC we must change minds, or elese get fresh minds that don't know anything about the other arts. Those are our best students because they are open and free of preconcieved notions on how fighting "should" be done.

UFC has a profound affect on people here, they act like it's the ultimate test of a styles effectiveness, which is the great illusion. The rules of UFC are molded around BJJ and grappling to make it more effective. If it really was "realistic no holds barred fighting" people would be allowed to punch the back of the neck of a grappler that comes into a fighter head first exposing the spine, or knees to the face as the try to grab the legs. Just as an example. A good heel kick to the teeth will take down a man coming into grapple a Wing Chun practitioner. All you need is Grade 1 and Grade 2 techniques, very simple stuff. But this is not allowed either. So how can they claim that what they show is "no holds barred?" Because they speak of submission holds, litterarly, not striking.

We use the anti-grappling techniques for the ground and they have proven to be extremely effective against grappling, wrestling, BJJ, etc.
I've taken Japanese Ju-Jitsu for years before my WC training, and being familiar with "grappling" concept have found that the anti-grappling is nothing short of brilliant even in it's most simple form. But you won't see it in UFC because the rules deny most of it's technique. Maybe in Pride contests. That stuff is more realistic than UFC for sure, and they allow for more technique.

You do realize that there have been and still are invitations to fight without any rules at all from MMAists - there is the Gracie Challenge and the Chute-Boxe challenge for $10,000 apiece among other less well known challenges? You could collect easy money if all you need in Wing Chun basics to prevent MMA tactics - and with no rules there shouldn't be any excuses.

 

[Si-Je]

Shamrock was American, But he was a Japanese shootfighter, and at the time "King of Pancrase".

I know Shamrock is American. As well as shootfighting he competed in american wrestling as well.

Sure he had. The Gracie Challenge goes back farther then the UFC.

Yeah, well, that's thier story. all a one sided point of view this is.

You do realize that there have been and still are invitations to fight without any rules at all from MMAists - there is the Gracie Challenge and the Chute-Boxe challenge for $10,000 apiece among other less well known challenges? You could collect easy money if all you need in Wing Chun basics to prevent MMA tactics - and with no rules there shouldn't be any excuses.

Where are these competitions? Haven't heard of them before, but then, I'm not really into this sort of thing. My husband (and teacher) is very interested in this type of fighting. He loves to compete. I'm trying to find out where in our area he can compete in either MMA cage or ring or whatever.

Although the "Gracie" challenge would not be wise. They have too much control over the rules of engagement, and the family hovers around the fight like a flock of vultures. We're looking for more unbiased competition and more open rule sets than what you get with those guys.

Of course, fighting without ANY rules will get really ugly, and will allow my hubbie to use ALL of his Wing Chun technique. Although basics will work out just fine, but NO rules will allow him to fully use sensitivity, flow, and wing chun technique.

I would really like to know more about these competitions.
Thank you.

 

[Rook]

I know Shamrock is American. As well as shootfighting he competed in american wrestling as well.

I think he was only in the fake pro-wrestling in America if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, well, that's thier story. all a one sided point of view this is.

They kinda won all the matches. The results were as one sided as the point of view.

Where are these competitions? Haven't heard of them before, but then, I'm not really into this sort of thing. My husband (and teacher) is very interested in this type of fighting. He loves to compete. I'm trying to find out where in our area he can compete in either MMA cage or ring or whatever.

If you go to www.mma.tv , you'll find an extensive list of local tournaments... I'm sure there is probably one in your area, wherever that may be.

Although the "Gracie" challenge would not be wise. They have too much control over the rules of engagement, and the family hovers around the fight like a flock of vultures. We're looking for more unbiased competition and more open rule sets than what you get with those guys.

Ok, I can see your point, the Gracies are a bit overbearing.

If you go to Bullshido and fire off a challenge, they'll send a C-level professional fighter your way and you can negociate ruleset beforehand. Thats probably the easiest option, as you won't have to fly anywhere else or worry about pre-fight physical exams - they'll send him to you.

Another option is to fly to Curitiba, Brazil and fight against a member of Chute-Boxe, with the possibility of a $10,000 prize if you win sans-rules (you might want to let them know you're coming beforehand and see if they've changed anything since the last time the challenge was issued - origionally to a wing chun expert no less). The Chute-Boxe guys are fairly solid pro-fighters, and their matches are ussually conducted a bit more mature and professional manner than the Gracies.

A third option is to find someone who knows about the Russian MMA scene - there is a fighting set called "Combat Sambo Total" where there are fines for biting or eye attacks and no other restrictions. From my understanding, there are quite a few of these tournaments going on at any given month, so that might be a bit more up your alley if you're thinking very limited ruleset but still something. I don't have a name for you, but it could be something to look into.

Of course, fighting without ANY rules will get really ugly, and will allow my hubbie to use ALL of his Wing Chun technique. Although basics will work out just fine, but NO rules will allow him to fully use sensitivity, flow, and wing chun technique.

I would really like to know more about these competitions.
Thank you.

Sure thing.

 

[Si-Je]

Thank you very much for the info! I've searched alot online, to find out where to get started, but it seems a little dauting.

Going to Brazil would be out of our price range. We're poor martial artistist! lol! Getting ready to open a school is going to take more funds than we currently have. So were trying to stay local for now.

We're in Texas, and I've been trying to find some competitions for him here. There's San Shou in Dallas, and San Antonio, some MMA cage fights outside of Dallas (pretty far from us). But we're researching it while he conditions.

He works full time, and planning time to train, and condition is an issue as well. But he loves to compete, so I try to support him in that endeavor. Me, I've got NO interest in such things. I just love to teach and train Wing Chun. Although, he wants me to compete too in these new women's fights (although it seems that you have to be a kickboxer to compete in the tournaments WFC). For me, fighting women wouldn't prove what I wish to prove as the ultimate effectiveness of Wing Chun.
Although no one seems to like the story of Yim Wing Chun and Ng Mai founding and creating the art, I find that the more I learn and train WC that this "myth" seems more and more true to me. The principles are directly from the mind set of a woman, point of view of a female, and the style and direction of fighting what a woman would need to do to be effective against a larger, stronger opponent (a man). The emphasis of not using strength, or force is stressed so much that it makes me think it came from someone who never had strength or force as an asset in fighting. - off subject there, sorry. But it's the main reason I don't wish to fight other women in competion. Even though they train to fight like men.

 

[Rook]

Thank you very much for the info! I've searched alot online, to find out where to get started, but it seems a little dauting.

There is alot of information to go through.

Going to Brazil would be out of our price range. We're poor martial artistist! lol! Getting ready to open a school is going to take more funds than we currently have. So were trying to stay local for now.

Thats just for a major fight without rules. You probably won't get money for fighting without a sanctioned professional fight outside Brazil and Russia besides the Gracie challenge.

We're in Texas, and I've been trying to find some competitions for him here. There's San Shou in Dallas, and San Antonio, some MMA cage fights outside of Dallas (pretty far from us). But we're researching it while he conditions.

I would personally recommend amateur MMA competitions first. From there, its easier to enter the pro-ranks. San Shou involves a very restrictive ruleset and requires the wearing of heavy gloves, so I wouldn't recommend it as a way to fight using Wing Chun tactics.

He works full time, and planning time to train, and condition is an issue as well. But he loves to compete, so I try to support him in that endeavor. Me, I've got NO interest in such things. I just love to teach and train Wing Chun. Although, he wants me to compete too in these new women's fights (although it seems that you have to be a kickboxer to compete in the tournaments WFC). For me, fighting women wouldn't prove what I wish to prove as the ultimate effectiveness of Wing Chun.

Ok.

Although no one seems to like the story of Yim Wing Chun and Ng Mai founding and creating the art, I find that the more I learn and train WC that this "myth" seems more and more true to me. The principles are directly from the mind set of a woman, point of view of a female, and the style and direction of fighting what a woman would need to do to be effective against a larger, stronger opponent (a man). The emphasis of not using strength, or force is stressed so much that it makes me think it came from someone who never had strength or force as an asset in fighting. - off subject there, sorry. But it's the main reason I don't wish to fight other women in competion. Even though they train to fight like men.

I think what I have seen of Wing Chun only makes sense when its being used by a smaller person fighting a larger opponent or equally sized people fighting - it would not be a good art for a large person, nor would it work well for fighting smaller people from what I have seen.