SKK Half Moon.......why?

[Hand Sword]

This topic might fit into the SKK form application thread, but, that seemed like a good seperate conversation going on.

So, I started a new thread. The idea of application (for real) has always consumed my training, and the form app's thread got me thinking again.That said, the idea of half mooning is gnawing at me (and has for years). I remember a time when half mooning was not done, instead the punches were a cross. I also have never liked the idea overall, with false applications being built into the techniques, based off a step through punch. So I was curious about all of you other SKK people, or those that trained in it, do you still use it? Do you find it detremental overall? Opinions of doing half mooning in the forms and techniques? Is/are there practical applications for the use of it?

Thanks. :asian:

 

[dancingalone]

How about a definition of half-mooning to help non-SKK people participate in this thread?

If you're talking about the 'circling step' used in many Chinese martial arts and even some Okinawan karate systems, there are sound reasons for training it. It can help protect your groin in transition movement and it helps you learn to root yourself. You can also build potential energy if your path is a at least somewhat circular - this energy can be expressed into a strike if chosen.

 

[MJS]

How about a definition of half-mooning to help non-SKK people participate in this thread?

If you're talking about the 'circling step' used in many Chinese martial arts and even some Okinawan karate systems, there are sound reasons for training it. It can help protect your groin in transition movement and it helps you learn to root yourself. You can also build potential energy if your path is a at least somewhat circular - this energy can be expressed into a strike if chosen.

The half-moon is also commonly referred to as a "C" step. For example: if you're standing with your left leg forward and right back, you bring your right leg up to your left, and continue thru, stepping forward. The motion that your right foot makes is similar to the "C" or in this case, the half moon.

Mike

 

[dancingalone]

Thanks, Mike. That's what I thought it was. Some common mistakes I've seen is when path of the feet is more like a zig zag straight line to the other foot. That's wrong in the arts I've studied (not SKK) and actually reaps your none of the benefits of the circle step and may actually make you vulnerable to a sweep.

There should be a 'hip rounding out' feeling and you should always feel connected to the ground through either your heels or the balls of your feet, depending on style. Again I'm not a Shaolin Kempo guy, so YMMV.

 

[JTKenpo]

Techniques - I use the halfmoon step (step through punch) to begin the understanding of the #combo's (defensive maneuvers) for two specific reasons.

One it allows the person attacking to more easily breakfall when being taken down. Obviously this is an important concept for beginners as well as more advanced students. The easier they can get up from a technique the more training you can do. If you get dropped on your head well its not as easy to get up. I explain in the beginning that all the combo's can be done against a cross but that I want them to get the "feel" for the technique first. Once they can smoothly move through the sequence of the technique now we can explore the cross (or the knife, club, overhand, hook......)

Two, well memory sake actually. There are a lot of techniques to learn and I feel that the journey through the underbelts is more of a memorization exercise. You need to know how to move before you can understand why. Thats not to say concepts and theories aren't taught under black belt, but that it is easier to understand a concept of a technique you have done a thousand times rather than a technique you have done twenty times. (I know this is a rather blanket statement and it is not true for every one and that there are many exceptions).

Forms - I find that one of the hardest things for beginners to grasp is that you must bend your knees in your stances. The halfmoon step helps with the muscle memory. Trying to keep someone from looking like they are riding a carousel (up down up down) can be a daunting task. Keeping the knees bent in the halfmoon step I believe helps this "quirk".

my two cents anyway

 

[14 Kempo]

Here's what I was taught along with much of what was already stated here.

Think of half-mooning as 'seeing the ground with your feet'. The world is not an even surface. There are roots, curbs, debris and what-not to trip you up. I an altercation, a person can not take the chance on looking downward to evaluate the surface for which they must negaotiate. Keeping the feet close to the ground, manuevering them into position prior to shifting body weight, allows for a person to reverse his/her actions prior to commitment and therefore in such situations where the movement is restricted, evades the loss of balance, or the trip. Just taking a different point of view.

 

[DavidCC]

The half-moon step sends confusing proprioceptive signals to the brain, thereby weakening your structure and diffusing your intent, on a physical level. This weakens your ability to unite your mind body and intent if you know what I mean...

It causes a shrinking of the base (that being the area of ground over which your weight is spread) which means you are less stable as you bring your feet together.

It includes no hip rotation when used as part of a step-through punch. (unless you havea cat stance in the middle of it!)

The half moon stance is begging to be kicked in the goodies even if the half moon step protects them for a moment while stepping.

The only reason I still use it at all is because I am required to do so in forms by my teacher but in technqiue execution I almost always use a "45 degree offset horse stance (NB)", unless there is specific reason for a 'toes forward' alignment at a particular moment.

We have a couple of sweeps in techniques where you do a C step in order to step behind a leg.

 

[IWishToLearn]

Dang. David beat me to it. Good post David!

 

[DavidCC]

Thanks I was afraid I was gonna get blasted LOL still might I guess

But I'm far from expert, only been at this 5-6 years or so, so there may be lots of other factors I have not considered or don't understand. i was just laying out there where I'm at on it now. 6 months ago I'd have had a different answer and in 6 more months I might too

 

[JTKenpo]

I believe that the halfmoon step has its purpose. Any stance has its weakness as it is only a picture of movement, one frame in a thousand. I hope no one would really try and step through with a punch and then sit and wait for there opponent to kick them in the goodies, amongst a million other things. If they do then hit em twice as often they deserve it. There has to be some form of embrionic basics which we can build on. In other words we have to learn to crawl before we walk. The half moon stance allows us to freely use any of our four limbs, an open stance. A 45 deg horse or neutral bow allows use of any of our four limbs and provides some cover of our vitals, semi open or semi closed. A side horse allows us to only use our front side but allows complete cover of our vitals, a closed stance. I guess what I am saying is you can use only one tool for any job but it becomes a lot easier if you have options.

 

[DavidCC]

I believe that the halfmoon step has its purpose. Any stance has its weakness as it is only a picture of movement, one frame in a thousand. I hope no one would really try and step through with a punch and then sit and wait for there opponent to kick them in the goodies, amongst a million other things. If they do then hit em twice as often they deserve it. There has to be some form of embrionic basics which we can build on. In other words we have to learn to crawl before we walk. The half moon stance allows us to freely use any of our four limbs, an open stance. A 45 deg horse or neutral bow allows use of any of our four limbs and provides some cover of our vitals, semi open or semi closed. A side horse allows us to only use our front side but allows complete cover of our vitals, a closed stance. I guess what I am saying is you can use only one tool for any job but it becomes a lot easier if you have options.

I do totally agree,

but after your first sentence you didn't talk about the STEP at all.

but I guess I shouldn't have brought up the Half Moon Stance because this thread is about the Half Moon STEP.

 

[JTKenpo]

I do totally agree,

but after your first sentence you didn't talk about the STEP at all.

but I guess I shouldn't have brought up the Half Moon Stance because this thread is about the Half Moon STEP.

LOL

Point taken!

 

[HKphooey]

None of us would use a horsestance is pratcial SD would we? But it has a place in training.

 

[IWishToLearn]

I do totally agree,

but after your first sentence you didn't talk about the STEP at all.

but I guess I shouldn't have brought up the Half Moon Stance because this thread is about the Half Moon STEP.

There's a half moon stance?

The commonly accepted cat stance done with the ball of the leading foot is horrible for body mechanics too, but it's still used all the time too.

 

[Hand Sword]

Thanks for the replys all!

The stance I don't mind so much, it allows all guns to be fired without having to adjust footing. Plus, it's usually how you end up before and after "firing", even if nuetral bowing, or whatever. (film yourself and see!) What has always vexed me was how it's used in SKK. I also was taught, (when it was introduced) about feeling the ground w/o looking down in a fight etc.. However, "sliding" and other movement does the same for you. Now, I admit there are certain uses for it that are very practical. But, overall, doesn't anyone feel that its use is lacking. For example, take the combos/DM's. Most of the follow ups, through to takedown come off of the idea that someone half mooned in. Realistically, it will be a cross, and that leg won't be there for a sweep, etc.... I dunno! Since it was added in (for me atleast, back then) I was just curious about other's views/ uses of it.

 

[marlon]

How about a definition of half-mooning to help non-SKK people participate in this thread?

If you're talking about the 'circling step' used in many Chinese martial arts and even some Okinawan karate systems, there are sound reasons for training it. It can help protect your groin in transition movement and it helps you learn to root yourself. You can also build potential energy if your path is a at least somewhat circular - this energy can be expressed into a strike if chosen.

and allow you to easily change direction mid step as it were...although Doc has stated that this tyope of stepping is anatomically disastrous for body alignment.

marlon

 

[marlon]

The half-moon step sends confusing proprioceptive signals to the brain, thereby weakening your structure and diffusing your intent, on a physical level. This weakens your ability to unite your mind body and intent if you know what I mean...

It causes a shrinking of the base (that being the area of ground over which your weight is spread) which means you are less stable as you bring your feet together.

It includes no hip rotation when used as part of a step-through punch. (unless you havea cat stance in the middle of it!)

The half moon stance is begging to be kicked in the goodies even if the half moon step protects them for a moment while stepping.

The only reason I still use it at all is because I am required to do so in forms by my teacher but in technqiue execution I almost always use a "45 degree offset horse stance (NB)", unless there is specific reason for a 'toes forward' alignment at a particular moment.

We have a couple of sweeps in techniques where you do a C step in order to step behind a leg.

i would have to see what you mean by cat stance...very curious.. we could be doing the same thing...when i half moon there is hip rotation, i never bring my feet together as corrected by Shihan Ingargiola as i first learn to do so. When you step heel or toe first?

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Hand Sword]

I could buy it as a training tool for doing basics, but, to base combinations off of it? Not very realistic. As comprised the combos/dm's would have to be re-arranged if the 1/2 mooning was eliminated, and replaced with more realsitic attack sequences. Most of the follow ups and takedowns aren't there w/o the 1/2 mooning punch ins. The stance, can be practical (and is).

 

[Doc]

Thanks for the replys all!

The stance I don't mind so much, it allows all guns to be fired without having to adjust footing. Plus, it's usually how you end up before and after "firing", even if nuetral bowing, or whatever. (film yourself and see!) What has always vexed me was how it's used in SKK. I also was taught, (when it was introduced) about feeling the ground w/o looking down in a fight etc.. However, "sliding" and other movement does the same for you. Now, I admit there are certain uses for it that are very practical. But, overall, doesn't anyone feel that its use is lacking. For example, take the combos/DM's. Most of the follow ups, through to takedown come off of the idea that someone half mooned in. Realistically, it will be a cross, and that leg won't be there for a sweep, etc.... I dunno! Since it was added in (for me atleast, back then) I was just curious about other's views/ uses of it.

Proprioceptive Sensors are a bit sensitive to how we move our feet relative to the direction of travel (among other things), to create structure to support the action. This "C-Step" does not support the structure or proper anatomical alignment of any stance.

The body is designed to locomote directly forward in a series of controlled falls, based on the physics of an inverted pendulum. The pelvic girdle supports these controlled falls and maintains the femur knee relationship for that purpose, as structure is needed to support the human body as it completes one "fall cycle" after another moving forward.

When the feet move laterally to the direction of travel and the pelvic girdle even slightly, from a proprioceptive perspective, the sensors are being told you are "side stepping," and structure is immediately shifted to that lateral perspective which is counter to the direction of travel and the focused intent of the activity, and therefore structure is lost and is only recoverable through a series of correcting mechanisms.

It is important to understand that the Chinese taught many different things for many reasons. It was the Okinawan's and Japanese that decided that every move had a physical application, and corrupted the process and misread "indexes of information" and transformed it into what they called Bunkai. Historical anecdotes suggest that the movements are derived from the clearing of the long Samurai Robes, and later "hakama of the Japanese, and is not seen or utilized in that manner in the Chinese Combat Sciences.

 

[Hand Sword]

Thank you sir!

I agree with all of that and have never liked the idea of doing it. I always felt like I was left "floating" in the air when doing it, and never stable. I always wondered why it was introduced and stressed. It never seemed practical, and the body always seemed to fight against the movement, when doing it for awhile, say, during a form. I also agree with the CMA view too. That way of doing it was different, and/or not stressed.