Pinans and SKK

[RevIV]

since we were off track on another thread, I would like to start a new thread. The pinans were added to the curriculum through Prof. Cerio. They were then modified by him to fit his style of Kenpo. Then the masters after him who continued to teach modified them even more to suit their understanding of the forms. Very few of these Masters went and studied the forms in their original way and intentions. My question is - besides good concepts that could be found, how many of you are required to know techniques from the Pinans and apply them to your self-defense curriculum for rank? When testing or in class besides working the bunkai, how many of you do reaction drills using the techniques within the form and if you do which ones?
I was busting Matt's chops in another thread because he is a good friend of mine and i know the owner of the school he works for (both were at my wedding) and Matt said he would get rid of some of them when he opens his own school some day. Who else would do the same? These are hard questions to ask people who have been doing it for a long time and like the forms. But in Kempo, how does Shotokan make us more fluid? Some of the teachers i have trained with add a lot of the shotokan forms into their requirements after black belt for further advancement? Would you think this is good or bad.
In Peace
Jesse

 

[IWishToLearn]

Coming from a japanese influenced background in the MA, I find I use analogies from my previous forms to provide additional alternate applications and variations to my Kenpo training and teaching.

 

[14 Kempo]

Yes, I have seen the Shotokan Heian series. The basic movements are very similar, but in my SKK style they are much softer and more fluid. We have incorporated the animals into the pinans as well.

Pinan #1 [Tiger], very karate-like, straight forward, powerful, always pressing.
Pinan #2 [Dragon], still very karate-like, added in the rising and falling into the blocks and strikes.
Pinan #3 [Crane], becomes softer and more fluid in its movements. Striking from a distance.
Pinan #4 [Leopard], very fluid, striking from a distance, minimized movements.
Pinan #5 [Snake], low stances, drawing the opponent into very fast, accurate strikes.

We are also asked on occasion to do the form as a different animal. I have not done them all this way, but as an example, I have done Pinan #1 as Tiger, Crane, Leopard, Snake and Dragon. All are a bit different in thier movements, blocks and strikes.

 

[LawDog]

I was first taught the pinon's in 1970. We did both the air and application versions. When the pinon techniques were applied against an opponent they had to be modified. First of all half mooning is not a linear motion. When you shift your weight onto the supporting leg a minor side shift occurs. When this happens your /12:00/ center line changes. Pivoting to the side or rear is also causes a lateral action. Minor adjustments to the blocking or striking angles had to be made. In many of the pinons there is a pivot to the side with a downward block followed by a cross step with a front punch. Again range problems combined with the laterial action caused many problems during application. There were many varied explainations for this technique. In some of the pinons hand strikes followed a kick, when stepping down from the kick you were outside of the hand strikes power curve. Another pinon had large circular blocks that were applied with a cross step. Again the resulting range was improper for the following strikes. Again this is what happened with the 1970's version.
Because of these and other reasons I dropped the pinons along time ago. I now only use old pinon #1 & #2 to teach proper breathing with continuous motion. These are not rank required forms.

 

[fnorfurfoot]

My old instructor dropped 1 and 2 pinion a long time ago. He felt that they were useless forms. Personally, I teach them to my students more as a way of teaching half-mooning and doing something with your hands while half-mooning. Over the years I have also come to learn how to pronounce them properly as Pinans and not Pinions.

 

[kosho]

1 pinion teaches basic movement. then when you look deeper it teaches you throwing arts, controlling arts, escaping arts. all from the same movements...Think about it and take a look at it.
Tell your students to try and find what i am talking about... its all there...
Unless you are stuck in a box
Kosho

all katas have them also.... just look deeper...

 

[marlon]

since we were off track on another thread, I would like to start a new thread. The pinans were added to the curriculum through Prof. Cerio. They were then modified by him to fit his style of Kenpo. Then the masters after him who continued to teach modified them even more to suit their understanding of the forms. Very few of these Masters went and studied the forms in their original way and intentions. My question is - besides good concepts that could be found, how many of you are required to know techniques from the Pinans and apply them to your self-defense curriculum for rank? When testing or in class besides working the bunkai, how many of you do reaction drills using the techniques within the form and if you do which ones?
I was busting Matt's chops in another thread because he is a good friend of mine and i know the owner of the school he works for (both were at my wedding) and Matt said he would get rid of some of them when he opens his own school some day. Who else would do the same? These are hard questions to ask people who have been doing it for a long time and like the forms. But in Kempo, how does Shotokan make us more fluid? Some of the teachers i have trained with add a lot of the shotokan forms into their requirements after black belt for further advancement? Would you think this is good or bad.
In Peace
Jesse

i would not get rid of them but to answer your question as of testing for brown belt students are required to come up with techniques from thier forms and use them effectively.
also i do use kempo flow with the pinan forms.
respectfully,
Marlon

 

[DavidCC]

... When the pinon techniques were applied against an opponent they had to be modified. First of all half mooning is not a linear motion. When you shift your weight onto the supporting leg a minor side shift occurs. When this happens your /12:00/ center line changes. Pivoting to the side or rear is also causes a lateral action. Minor adjustments to the blocking or striking angles had to be made. In many of the pinons there is a pivot to the side with a downward block followed by a cross step with a front punch. Again range problems combined with the laterial action caused many problems during application. There were many varied explainations for this technique. In some of the pinons hand strikes followed a kick, when stepping down from the kick you were outside of the hand strikes power curve. Another pinon had large circular blocks that were applied with a cross step. Again the resulting range was improper for the following strikes...

This is pretty close to how I feel about them too.

But I am not in a position to dictate if they are taught or not. not yet.

 

[RevIV]

1 pinion teaches basic movement. then when you look deeper it teaches you throwing arts, controlling arts, escaping arts. all from the same movements...Think about it and take a look at it.
Tell your students to try and find what i am talking about... its all there...
Unless you are stuck in a box
Kosho

all katas have them also.... just look deeper...

Kosho,
for the exact reason you have stated is why i still teach 1 pinan and i kept 2 because it was a creation by Prof. Cerio and i use some techniques from it in my curriculum. But like others I have discarded 3,4,5 from the rank requirements. They are not supposed to by soft and circular from their origins, they just became that way. Lawdog i guess you and i are more on the same wave length for those. Have a great evening.
In Peace
Jesse
(i am trying to take the parts of the forms that did make sense and put them together in a combined form that helps my students keep some of the old)

 

[LawDog]

Fnorfurfoot,
I do that pin(on) instead of pin(an) all of the time, just like in kempo - kenpo etc. Spelling properly I do not.

 

[RevIV]

Fnorfurfoot,
I do that pin(on) instead of pin(an) all of the time, just like in kempo - kenpo etc. Spelling properly I do not.

they should def. have a spell check on these forums. that way i do not have to go to microsoft all the time, type it and make sure its right.
Jesse

 

[RevIV]

GM Cunningham,

I was told that you have a very interesting Bunkai to 1 kata, it would be great if we could actually meet up sometime and possibly go over it. 07' was another year for changes. a small bit in 06' and more this year. I do my 1 kata more towards GM Pesare's version.
In Peace
Jesse

 

[LawDog]

Master Dwyer,
When I am on this forum I usually keep my outlook express on so that I can use the spell check program.

 

[marlon]

GM Cunningham,

I was told that you have a very interesting Bunkai to 1 kata, it would be great if we could actually meet up sometime and possibly go over it. 07' was another year for changes. a small bit in 06' and more this year. I do my 1 kata more towards GM Pesare's version.
In Peace
Jesse

is there a big difference?

marlon

 

[CTKempo Todd]

Speaking of 1 Kata...

Interested in hearing how you all end the form.

Do you:
a) backfist with a medium to high side kick
b) Backfist with a low side blade kick
c) Perform a (number 1 or 2 in 8pt blocking speak) Block to the side and side kick (does not matter the height in this instance)

I was originally taught 'a' however it can't physically be done unless your arms are as long as your legs..I teach method 'c' because to me it feels the most practical.

I remember a conversation that it was taught as method 'b' but as people started performing 1 Kata in tournaments, the kicks got higher and hten it became the way it was taught.

 

[14 Kempo]

Speaking of 1 Kata...

Interested in hearing how you all end the form.

Do you:
a) backfist with a medium to high side kick
b) Backfist with a low side blade kick
c) Perform a (number 1 or 2 in 8pt blocking speak) Block to the side and side kick (does not matter the height in this instance)

I was originally taught 'a' however it can't physically be done unless your arms are as long as your legs..I teach method 'c' because to me it feels the most practical.

I remember a conversation that it was taught as method 'b' but as people started performing 1 Kata in tournaments, the kicks got higher and hten it became the way it was taught.

"a" could be a functional application using a medium height kick to the waist/hip area. This will bend over the opponent and allow the backfist to reach the temple. You are correct with regards to a high kick, the backfist will not reach the opponent.

"b" is an application that can work, a kick to the knee could bend the opponent over allowing the backfist to reach the temple area as well.

"c" seems to me, might be my capability and flexibility, that if I was close enough to use a #1 or #2 block, which is against a punch, I would be to close to deliver an effective side kick.

Just my 2 cents ...

 

[RevIV]

Speaking of 1 Kata...

Interested in hearing how you all end the form.

Do you:
a) backfist with a medium to high side kick
b) Backfist with a low side blade kick
c) Perform a (number 1 or 2 in 8pt blocking speak) Block to the side and side kick (does not matter the height in this instance)

I was originally taught 'a' however it can't physically be done unless your arms are as long as your legs..I teach method 'c' because to me it feels the most practical.

I remember a conversation that it was taught as method 'b' but as people started performing 1 Kata in tournaments, the kicks got higher and hten it became the way it was taught.

Say person is grabbing RT shoulder with their left hand, backfist face would fit and kicking out the knee would work if you were going for the furthest leg. You asked the what we are doing here, so i guess i need to throw in that i am doing something different. GM Pesare brought these Katas to the east coast more than 40 years ago and he says he has never changed them from the originals. I have learned all 4 of his original katas and they are different then what we do. I do my ending the same way the he does. After turn around #2 block back punch (then most would set up for the simo. kick and punch) I pull my arms to a LT cup and saucer ride side kick, then RT cup and saucer left side kick. then finish with a final cup and saucer the the LT. I would love to know which generation put in the kick back fist with the kick (making it look like all the trophies out there)?

 

[Shotochem]

Speaking of 1 Kata...

Interested in hearing how you all end the form.

Do you:
a) backfist with a medium to high side kick
b) Backfist with a low side blade kick
c) Perform a (number 1 or 2 in 8pt blocking speak) Block to the side and side kick (does not matter the height in this instance)

I was originally taught 'a' however it can't physically be done unless your arms are as long as your legs..I teach method 'c' because to me it feels the most practical.

I remember a conversation that it was taught as method 'b' but as people started performing 1 Kata in tournaments, the kicks got higher and hten it became the way it was taught.

Hi Todd,

I look at a like this:

since on most people their legs are longer than their arms,the side kick to the groin or solar plexus bends the attacker over directly into the backfist.

At least that was how it was explained to me in my Shotokan days.

On another note, I agree the pinan/heians do not feel the same when done Kempo like. Softening them up IMO, just feels wrong. But that may just be me.

-Marc-

 

[RevIV]

I guess i should of put the bunkai in that last one. When you are cup and saucering (is that a word) you are grabbing the Opponents head that you are back punching and then snapping the neck. I use this bunkai from the knowledge learned from Prof. Kimo. His teacher was Prof. Walter Godin, who helped create the Kata's in the Karazenpo Go Shinjitsu system (so i have been told) Prof Kimo's 1 pinion is similiar to Palama 1 and in there his interpretation after one of the "X" blocks double punch is a cup and saucer to both sides and in that he is grabbing the head and snapping the neck when he changes sides. IF prof. Godin helped make the Kata's and GM pesare learned this the original way from GM Gascon it seems to fit in a way. Plus for myself and my students i would rather teach a kata that shows more self defense then a nice punch kick from a trophy.
In Peace
Jesse

 

[RevIV]

Hi Todd,

I look at a like this:

since on most people their legs are longer than their arms,the side kick to the groin or solar plexus bends the attacker over directly into the backfist.

At least that was how it was explained to me in my Shotokan days.

On another note, I agree the pinan/heians do not feel the same when done Kempo like. Softening them up IMO, just feels wrong. But that may just be me.

-Marc-

Marc,
I agree with you, I had to learn the original Heians years after i had learned the pinans and it just did not feel right doing them soft.
Jesse