Simple karate

[GojuTommy]

Perhaps... uhmmm... boxing or MT?
Kata cannot be separated from the Karate style; otherwise, it would not be Karate; Kyokushin practices Kata as much as sparring.

I think you very much can have karate without kata, however it is a core component.

Over the last few years I’ve tried having discussions in various places as to how much can be removed from the common 3K karate format of teaching and training, and still have it reasonably be called karate?

Is kata 100% required? Is kihon? Are gis? How about multi level belt rankings? Using Japanese terminology? Using Japanese traditions? Etc.

 

[R5ky]

I beg to differ, sir. Most American Karate styles do not have Kata

I beg to differ, sir. Most American Karate styles do not have Kata

Did you guys not learn anything from the time Daniel Larruso used his Kata training to defeat Mike Barnes?
Can you picture if he had listened to Terry Silver's ramblings about kata being useless?

 

[R5ky]

I beg to differ, sir. Most American Karate styles do not have Kata

I've never seen or heard of American Karate in my area, despite living in a state where martial arts are widely practiced.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Most American Karate styles do not have Kata

Would you say "American Karate" is simply sport fighting using karate tournament sparring techniques? Besides this, what other elements (if any) of traditional karate does it have? Is it based on EPKK?

I have no experience with it so am trying to get a handle on just what it is. Thanks.

 

[Tigerwarrior]

Would you say "American Karate" is simply sport fighting using karate tournament sparring techniques? Besides this, what other elements (if any) of traditional karate does it have? Is it based on EPKK?

I have no experience with it so am trying to get a handle on just what it is. Thanks.

Around here they call it freestyle karate. Lots of sparring and kihon, they make up their own forms from what I've seen.

 

[_Simon_]

Would you say "American Karate" is simply sport fighting using karate tournament sparring techniques? Besides this, what other elements (if any) of traditional karate does it have? Is it based on EPKK?

I have no experience with it so am trying to get a handle on just what it is. Thanks.

This video was just put out recently on the American karate, Art of One Dojo does quite a few style summary vids, haven't watched it yet but thought I'd pass it on!

 

[GojuTommy]

This video was just put out recently on the American karate, Art of One Dojo does quite a few style summary vids, haven't watched it yet but thought I'd pass it on!

You didn’t share a video lol

 

[_Simon_]

You didn’t share a video lol

HAHA ahhhh whoops, you're right! My bad! 🤣

Here it is haha

 

[MadMartigan]

What's the most basic style of karate for fighting.
I like the Look of karate but I absolutely hate kata ...yes I know Shotokan tops the list, I found it so boring.
So looking for minimal kata with more Partner training.

Have you tried showing up to a kickboxing gym wearing a white gi? You'll get the "look" of Karate and can then just do the sparring. If it helps, you could also count along with your reps in Japanese to complete the facade.

 

[Hot Lunch]

What's the most basic style of karate for fighting.
I like the Look of karate but I absolutely hate kata ...yes I know Shotokan tops the list, I found it so boring.
So looking for minimal kata with more Partner training.

Kickboxing?

I recently switched from Shorin-ryu to Shotokan, and found that I get even more partner training in Shotokan than I did in Shorin-ryu. Also, with a much simpler curriculum. The mudanshu curriculum in the Shorin-ryu dojo that I left is contained in two wire-bound books, where the mudansha curriculum for Shotokan (at least ISKF) is on a four-page pdf file. One of the many reasons I made the switch.

"Boring" might have more to do with the instructors than the curriculum.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Kata is Karate isn't it?

The traditional aspects of Karate held a great appeal. The discipline and respect of the dojo etiquette. Learning life lessons through the foundation of a fighting art is intriguing. Martial arts are more than just fighting. These are cultural artforms. Remove the kata and you lose the essence of the art

 

[Gyakuto]

Kata is Karate isn't it?

The traditional aspects of Karate held a great appeal. The discipline and respect of the dojo etiquette. Learning life lessons through the foundation of a fighting art is intriguing. Martial arts are more than just fighting. These are cultural artforms. Remove the kata and you lose the essence of the art

These aspects of Karate grew in their appeal for me when I practised the art, to such an extent that I was attracted away from Karate to even more traditional Japanese martial arts where these ideas were available ‘on steroids’!

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

Goju schools tends to do more bunakai of their kata than some of the other styles
breaking it down into fighting and self defense drills done with another person

But in terms of simplicity, shotokan was more so meant for bringing karate to younger practitioners
so that would be your way to go

 

[Buka]

Kata is Karate isn't it?

The traditional aspects of Karate held a great appeal. The discipline and respect of the dojo etiquette. Learning life lessons through the foundation of a fighting art is intriguing. Martial arts are more than just fighting. These are cultural artforms. Remove the kata and you lose the essence of the art

I disagree. I'll use the words of a wise man to explain what I mean.....

"Learning life lessons through the foundation of a fighting art is intriguing. Martial arts are more than just fighting. These are cultural artforms."

 

[isshinryuronin]

I disagree. I'll use the words of a wise man to explain what I mean.....

"Learning life lessons through the foundation of a fighting art is intriguing. Martial arts are more than just fighting. These are cultural artforms."

Some MA (especially Oriental) are "cultural (philosophical) artforms" to a greater or lesser extent. They are a blend of this aspect with fighting, and historically they evolved together, influencing each other, so it is difficult to separate the two.

When the cultural/philosophical aspects are removed you no longer have TMA - it becomes a somewhat different animal. Think of co-joined (Siamese) twins. When separated, usually at least one of them end up shorted in some respect. Accordingly, IMO, this non-fighting aspect of TMA is an inherent part of the art.

This said, I believe TMA is about fighting, but that part not directly concerned with combat plays a strong supporting role. Without it, one can still be a good fighter, but I believe you no longer have what I would call true karate/gung fu. One can embrace this (as seen in combat sports or military CQC) but for my journey I have followed the path of TMA.

 

[GojuTommy]

Kata is Karate isn't it?

The traditional aspects of Karate held a great appeal. The discipline and respect of the dojo etiquette. Learning life lessons through the foundation of a fighting art is intriguing. Martial arts are more than just fighting. These are cultural artforms. Remove the kata and you lose the essence of the art

‘Cultural artforms’
No sorry to tell you this, but primarily in the ‘west’ karate is taught by people who have no actual experience with their style’s ‘home’ culture except through someone else who had little to no understanding of the culture.

This ‘cultural art form’ is primarily people playing dress up and butchering another culture.

But how much kata then is necessary for karate to be karate? Surely nowhere near the amount of kata that modern karate tends to focus on is 100% unnecessary

 

[GojuTommy]

Some MA (especially Oriental) are "cultural (philosophical) artforms" to a greater or lesser extent. They are a blend of this aspect with fighting, and historically they evolved together, influencing each other, so it is difficult to separate the two.

When the cultural/philosophical aspects are removed you no longer have TMA - it becomes a somewhat different animal. Think of co-joined (Siamese) twins. When separated, usually at least one of them end up shorted in some respect. Accordingly, IMO, this non-fighting aspect of TMA is an inherent part of the art.

This said, I believe TMA is about fighting, but that part not directly concerned with combat plays a strong supporting role. Without it, one can still be a good fighter, but I believe you no longer have what I would call true karate/gung fu. One can embrace this (as seen in combat sports or military CQC) but for my journey I have followed the path of TMA.

I can’t speak for other TMAs (a completely superficial term) but in karate there was no specific integration of philosophy or life lessons, as part of karate until after WWII.

Karate does not have any sort of religious or philosophical elements baked into it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I can’t speak for other TMAs (a completely superficial term) but in karate there was no specific integration of philosophy or life lessons, as part of karate until after WWII.

Karate does not have any sort of religious or philosophical elements baked into it.

Religious elements, no, I agree (with a slight exception or two). However, there are numerous philosophical, cultural, ethical and spiritual elements which strongly influenced TMA during its development prior to WWII.

I'll start with one of the exceptions I mentioned (dates approx.):

700AD. It's generally agreed that TMA more or less began at the Shaolin TEMPLE and practiced by Buddhist MONKS. No doubt that this influenced their MA and much of kung fu (at least in spiritual attitude such as mushin and mizu no kokoro) and breathing technique.

1300. The concept of energy flow, meridians and sichen (twelve hour blood flow cycles) led to vital point striking at specific areas at particular times. Pioneered by Daoist physicians. This was/is the basis for Dim Mak and pressure point exploitation that influenced original jiu jitsu and karate.

1800. Feng Qinian, reputed founder of White Crane, is said to have stated the principles on which her system was based: Moral teachings, breathing and self-discovery, were handed down from ancient times.

1840. Master Wang (Fao Dang?) states physical conditioning must be balanced with philosophical assimilation and introspection.

1850. Bushi Matsumura writes the Seven Virtues of Bu (MA) which deals with the altruistic goals of MA. He also advocates the concept of "bunbu ryo do" regarding the relationship between philosophy/culture and MA. Musashi advocated a similar concept two centuries earlier in his Book of Five Rings.

1850 +/-. The Eight Precepts of Chuan Fa (gung fu) appears in the Bubishi and includes reference to yin/yang as well as sichen blood flow and man's relationship with the universe.

1900. Higaonna Kanryo, founder of Naha Te and teacher to Miyagi, embraces the above writings.

1900-1930. Itosu and Funakoshi stress TMA for overall personal development, aside from physical benefits.

I think this is enough to justify saying that philosophical and cultural elements played a part in TMA prior to WWII and influenced its development to some extent over the centuries.

 

[Flying Crane]

700AD. It's generally agreed that TMA more or less began at the Shaolin TEMPLE and practiced by Buddhist MONKS. No doubt that this influenced their MA and much of kung fu (at least in spiritual attitude (such as mushin and mizu no kokoro) and breathing technique.

This is a myth. First, martial arts were practiced for as long as the human species have been around, and systematized martial arts both within China and elsewhere were practiced long before the Shaolin story. Second, the martial arts that were brought to Shaolin and resided there and were (perhaps) developed there, were largely not done so with spiritual/religious infusions. This is part of the mythology.

 

[isshinryuronin]

This is a myth. First, martial arts were practiced for as long as the human species have been around, and systematized martial arts both within China and elsewhere were practiced long before the Shaolin story. Second, the martial arts that were brought to Shaolin and resided there and were (perhaps) developed there, were largely not done so with spiritual/religious infusions. This is part of the mythology.

I do not find it reasonable to think that the MA taught and practiced in a temple by monks was NOT infused with some degree of their beliefs. There is a close connection to mind, body and spirit and all three do affect execution of technique.

Anyway, whether some of TMA's mythology is true, partly true or just made up and passed on as fact is actually irrelevant. The fact is that it was largely embraced and acted upon by those who played a part in the evolution of kung fu and karate. As such, these ideas did enter the TMA realm and played a part in its development. This is the power of mythology.