similarities Karate/Tae kwon Do

[puunui]

Now, I will say that Gen. Choi especially, but also other Kwan heads

General Choi was never a "Kwan head". He held an honorary kwan president position at the Chung Do Kwan during the 1950's, but it was without any authority. And the first Kwan Jang of the Oh Do Kwan was GM NAM Tae Hi. General Choi couldn't hold any real kwan head position because of his position in the ROK Army.

 

[puunui]

Kee didn't join the TKD and kept to his shotokan studies.

By "Kee" I am assuming you are referring to GM HWANG Kee. "Hwang" is his last name, not Kee.

But the Korean's can not acknowldge the Japanese nor should they ever.

The second generation pioneers all recognize and acknowledge that Taekwondo has evolved in part through Okinawan Karate which was learned by their Korean born teachers in Japan. The Korean born teachers also openly admit and discuss the fact that they studied Karate in Japan. In fact, many older Koreans are very proud of their Japan education. Back in Korea in the 40's and beyond, to be educated in Japan was like an American saying that he was educated at Oxford -- something that one is proud of.

 

[puunui]

TKD was my first art and I still remember being fed the TKD is 2000 years old replete with the Hwarangdo creation myth. I don't support untruthful propaganda, even if it is understandable why it arose in the first place.

Again, it depends on your perspective. The 2000 year old thing is in reference to the culture and history of using kicks in Korea. This cultural aspect of Korea was incorporated and blended into the Karate based arts that were being practiced in the 1940's and beyond. The kicking portion of Taekwondo, which is a very unique development in the martial arts, came from Korea. Karate certainly didn't have it, and at this point, Karate is adopting kicking methods from Taekwondo.

 

[dancingalone]

Again, it depends on your perspective. The 2000 year old thing is in reference to the culture and history of using kicks in Korea. This cultural aspect of Korea was incorporated and blended into the Karate based arts that were being practiced in the 1940's and beyond. The kicking portion of Taekwondo, which is a very unique development in the martial arts, came from Korea. Karate certainly didn't have it, and at this point, Karate is adopting kicking methods from Taekwondo.

Indeed, it all depends on perspective. Emphasizing kicks as a nod to artifacts like tae kyon might be a good link back to Korean culture and history. Saying TKD itself is 2000 years old as I have seen on the 'net as well as spoken verbatim is not.

By the way, where do you see kicking pollination coming into karate from TKD? I suppose tournament competition would be one obvious place, but to your knowledge are you aware of any style adopting Korean kicks wide scale?

 

[puunui]

Indeed, it all depends on perspective. Emphasizing kicks as a nod to artifacts like tae kyon might be a good link back to Korean culture and history. Saying TKD itself is 2000 years old as I have seen on the 'net as well as spoken verbatim is not.

Maybe to some people Taekwondo is 2000 years old because they are focusing in on the korean cultural aspect of Taekwondo. You disagree, perhaps because you are focusing in on the karate aspect of Taekwondo. I hear a lot of karate practitioners look at Taekwondo and say that Taekwondo is Karate, seeing only what they want to see and ignoring everything else. I don't think that perspective is any valid as someone denying that Taekwondo has no roots in karate.

By the way, where do you see kicking pollination coming into karate from TKD? I suppose tournament competition would be one obvious place, but to your knowledge are you aware of any style adopting Korean kicks wide scale?

I see it from my own perspective as well as others. I was originally a Shotokan student who wanted to learn about korean style kicks. I also know that there is a Karate champion from Hawaii, George Kotaka, who spent time learning kicking from a Taekwondo instructor (who is my student). We went on bring that back to his father's organization, and ended up winning quite a few tournaments using the kicks he learned while a taekwondo student.

Also, karate kicks were very crude and basic up until recently. In Shotokan we only learned front, round, side and some crescent kicks, along with other leg movements from the kata. We didn't have any spinning, jumping spinning, instep roundhouse, ax kick, or any other kicks that are common now in many schools. Karate has borrowed from Taekwondo, in much the same way that Taekwondo borrowed from Karate. It is inevitable, unless you live in a cave someplace isolated from the world.

 

[puunui]

useful as first places of contact that might lead them to more academic research made by people like Dakin Burdick.

Burdick's article about TKD history is available at http://www.budosportcapelle.nl/gesch.html with a full bibliography for anyone who is interested in reading further.

Dakin Burdick's article has been disproven to be filled with inaccuracies. He admitted it to me when we discussed his article, which is contains no original research but is merely a cut and paste plagerism of an article by Corocan and Farkas. The names, dates as well as his conclusions are erroneous, which again Dakin has publicly admitted back in the late 90's.

 

[dancingalone]

Maybe to some people Taekwondo is 2000 years old because they are focusing in on the korean cultural aspect of Taekwondo. You disagree, perhaps because you are focusing in on the karate aspect of Taekwondo. I hear a lot of karate practitioners look at Taekwondo and say that Taekwondo is Karate, seeing only what they want to see and ignoring everything else. I don't think that perspective is any valid as someone denying that Taekwondo has no roots in karate.

Are you misunderstanding me? I have both HEARD and SEEN first hand people and websites saying tae kwon do is a 2000 year old art in of itself. It's something many members here can also recount first hand. With the wider spread of information these days, thankfully the myth is repeated less often as people become more educated.

I definitely think there was some institutional mythology creation in the past, and now all sides are retreating to more defensible positions.

I see it from my own perspective as well as others. I was originally a Shotokan student who wanted to learn about korean style kicks. I also know that there is a Karate champion from Hawaii, George Kotaka, who spent time learning kicking from a Taekwondo instructor (who is my student). We went on bring that back to his father's organization, and ended up winning quite a few tournaments using the kicks he learned while a taekwondo student.

Tournament fighters, then. As I expected.

Also, karate kicks were very crude and basic up until recently. In Shotokan we only learned front, round, side and some crescent kicks, along with other leg movements from the kata. We didn't have any spinning, jumping spinning, instep roundhouse, ax kick, or any other kicks that are common now in many schools. Karate has borrowed from Taekwondo, in much the same way that Taekwondo borrowed from Karate. It is inevitable, unless you live in a cave someplace isolated from the world.

Again, do you have a specific example of a ryu borrowing kicks from TKD? As you confirm mawashi-geri (roundhouse) and mikazuki-geri (crescent) have been found in Shotokan for decades now. As is kaiten ushiro-geri (spinning back kick). I don't think ax kicks or any of the other spinning kicks are practiced commonly as part of an official grading syllabus in any strain of Japanese or Okinawan karate (other than Kyokushin, a rather special case). Individual sensei may add something like a hook kick from time to time like I do because of my TKD background, but that is individual preference rather than a overall directional move.

 

[dancingalone]

Dakin Burdick's article has been disproven to be filled with inaccuracies. He admitted it to me when we discussed his article, which is contains no original research but is merely a cut and paste plagerism of an article by Corocan and Farkas. The names, dates as well as his conclusions are erroneous, which again Dakin has publicly admitted back in the late 90's.

Thank you. That is good to know. How do you feel about the bibliography Mr. Burdick provided?

 

[chrispillertkd]

General Choi was never a "Kwan head". He held an honorary kwan president position at the Chung Do Kwan during the 1950's, but it was without any authority. And the first Kwan Jang of the Oh Do Kwan was GM NAM Tae Hi. General Choi couldn't hold any real kwan head position because of his position in the ROK Army.

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

Depends on how you define Shotokan and also Taekwondo. The most senior Shotokan student from Korea was GM LEE Won Kuk, the founder of the Chung Do Kwan. GM Lee began his training while a student at Chuo University and continued his studies after graduation. GM Lee (who I interviewed at length both at his house and over the telephone) stated that his main teacher was not FUNAKOSHI Gichin, but rather his son, FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei, who GM Lee referred to as "Waka Sensei", or young sensei. GM Lee said he studied mostly with Waka Sensei during the night classes. Waka Sensei had a day job, just like GM Lee and so they worked in the day and trained at night.

GM Lee stated that Waka Sensei emphasized a very short narrow stance as well as economical arm movements. This is what he taught to his students during the 1940's. Waka Sensei died in 1945, and his work was taken over by junior students such as Nakayama Sensei of the JKA. GM Lee was senior to Nakayama Sensei in age and experience in Shotokan.

GM Lee said that the longer wider stance was something that evolved out of the Japanese style sparring that was being developed in Japan, which was to make Karate into arts such as kendo and judo. He said that when they first started sparring (with five step, then three step and finally one step sparring), the students would step out wide so that they could connect squarely against their opponent or partner's torso, who were generally standing with a 45 degree angle to their body. In order to hit square, one would have to step at that 45 degree angle to make the T like connection with their opponent.

Modern Taekwondo competitors adopt the same stepping out motion, in what is known as "cover punch".

He said that that stepping out wide was then incorporated into the kata. However, originally the stances were short and narrow, with your joints aligned.

Shotokan went in this direction during the 1950's, and because of the many exchanges Korea had with Japan during the time, Taekwondo stances also became longer and wider. The problem in Taekwondo came because many of the senior practitioners started Taekwondo during this time frame, and so they adopted the wider stances, and continue to use that wide stance.

In 1967, GM LEE Won Kuk returned to Korea and gave a series of seminars to reeducate the students into adopting the shorter narrow stances that was originally taught at the Shotokan. These were adopted into the Kukkiwon poomsae that we have today.

So even though the Kukkiwon forms have been rearranged into the Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae, the movements themselves, including but not limited to the short narrow stances and compact arm movements, is closer to the original shotokan than the shotokan of today.

This was rather interesting to read. I wanted to note however that there are various karate history articles that state the contrary, that "Gigo" Funakoshi was in fact at least partially responsible for the long stances found today in Shotokan karate. Google will bring up some like this one:

http://www.shotokai.cl/historia/35_eh_.html

"With Yoshitaka's involvement in Karate-do, the technical developments and changes were spectacular and seminal, modifying the style that had been practiced until that moment. The high stances were replaced with low, forced stances, this included a a perpendicular lower leg with respect to the ground, the knee over the big toe, these changes immediately shot the effort and roughness of the training to a new dimension, and put a strong pressure on the mental and physical practice of Karate-do and it's followers."

 

[puunui]

Are you misunderstanding me? I have both HEARD and SEEN first hand people and websites saying tae kwon do is a 2000 year old art in of itself. It's something many members here can also recount first hand. With the wider spread of information these days, thankfully the myth is repeated less often as people become more educated.

No I don't think I am misunderstanding you. Try reading what I wrote. You say Taekwondo is not 2000 years old because of its karate roots. Others are saying it is 2000 years old because of the cultural overlay.

I definitely think there was some institutional mythology creation in the past, and now all sides are retreating to more defensible positions.

And I can tell you exactly when it started. There was a meeting at the IOC wherein Taekwondo was attempting to become an Olympic Sport. The Japanese IOC member said that Taekwondo is nothing more than a Korean version of Karate, and therefore it should not become an Olympic sport, but rather Karate should be admitted. Dr. Un Yong KIM responded by saying no, Taekwondo is not karate but rather has its roots in Korean history going back 2000 years. Here, look at these cave paintings and statues.

Tournament fighters, then. As I expected.

Tournament fighters are the most visible examples that would adopt modern kicking. But I am sure there are self defense types who added in Taekwondo kicks. I'll go see if I can find you more examples.

Again, do you have a specific example of a ryu borrowing kicks from TKD? As you confirm mawashi-geri (roundhouse) and mikazuki-geri (crescent) have been found in Shotokan for decades now. As is kaiten ushiro-geri (spinning back kick).

Yeah, but the kicks aren't performed in the same way. In shotokan, we used to lift our leg up like a dog peeing and kick with the ball of the foot like a horizontal roundhouse.

There is an instructor here who teaches shorin ryu who is very proud of his roundhouse kick, and he does it like a taekwondo person. You could say that his branch has adopted the taekwondo roundhouse.

And we never did any sort of spinning back kick when I learned shotokan. Our back kick was more like a mule kick directed straight backwards. There was no spin. If you are doing spin back kick then that is an adaptation from korean martial arts. Even if it was decades ago, that does not mean it hasn't been adapted from korean styles.

I don't think ax kicks or any of the other spinning kicks are practiced commonly as part of an official grading syllabus in any strain of Japanese or Okinawan karate (other than Kyokushin, a rather special case). Individual sensei may add something like a hook kick from time to time like I do because of my TKD background, but that is individual preference rather than a overall directional move.

The point is, practitioners from other styles are adopting taekwondo and other korean based martial arts. Lyoto Machida claims a shotokan background but his kicks look more like korean style kicking than shotokan, at least the shotokan I learned.

 

[puunui]

Emphasizing kicks as a nod to artifacts like tae kyon might be a good link back to Korean culture and history.

Taekkyon is alive and well.

 

[puunui]

How do you feel about the bibliography Mr. Burdick provided?

Most of the sources that he used, except for the ones by corcoran and farkas, aren't really historical articles. They are regular books and magazine articles that have a small passing blurb on history, which dakin cobbled together to create his collage. I have most of those, especially the korean martial arts ones, and I at one point tried to recreate what he did. Dakin work is more akin to a plagerized high school term paper rather than any sort of scholarly work.

 

[puunui]

"With Yoshitaka's involvement in Karate-do, the technical developments and changes were spectacular and seminal, modifying the style that had been practiced until that moment. The high stances were replaced with low, forced stances, this included a a perpendicular lower leg with respect to the ground, the knee over the big toe, these changes immediately shot the effort and roughness of the training to a new dimension, and put a strong pressure on the mental and physical practice of Karate-do and it's followers."

I understand that. What that is about is that Waka Sensei used to put his full body weight behind each blow, especially when training on the makiwara. He would really lunge deeply and would snap the makiwara in half using his punches. But during sparring or actual application, he would drag his back leg up after the deep lunge so that he stance would once again become narrow.

His students would copy that motion and adopted that to their forms, or at least that is what they remembered. You have to understand that many of the senior students did not train during the 1940's because they were busy fighting in the Japanese army or were stationed outside of Japan. They were gone for five or more years, and when they returned, Waka Sensei had passed away. What they were left with was trying to remember what Waka Sensei did five or six or more years before. GM LEE Won Kuk on the other hand, studied continuously under Waka Sensei for at least ten years, up through almost the time of Waka Sensei's death in 1945. GM Lee left Japan and went back to korea in 1944 because he said that the americans were bombing tokyo on a daily basis and it was very dangerous to live there. the civilian casualties were high and so he felt that moving back to korea would be safer, since no one was bombing korea.

So GM Lee has a different perspective than some of the others who studied at the Shotokan under Waka Sensei. When GM Lee moved back to Japan in 1950, and throughout that period, he said that he could see the changes in shotokan at the jka, shotokai and other groups, going to that long wide stance. he said that was a perversion of what waka sensei taught. He was really upset when he saw the same thing in korea back in 1967 and spent several months trying to fix all of that.

Which brings us full circle, in that kukki taekwondo is more similar to shotokan as originally practiced than what shotokan is today. Even the hand movements are more similar. For example, shotokan adopted the chambering hand on knife hand block as a forward chamber, whereas taekwondo had maintained the original chamber of both arm sweeping back and then coming forward.

 

[dancingalone]

No I don't think I am misunderstanding you. Try reading what I wrote. You say Taekwondo is not 2000 years old because of its karate roots. Others are saying it is 2000 years old because of the cultural overlay.

I am telling you what others have said verbatim in my presence. You ascribe their misstatements as arising from a 'cultural overlay', something you cannot know is true or not.

Some may be making an intelligent connection to the past. Others are undoubtedly engaging full bore in the continuation of the myth.
.

And I can tell you exactly when it started. There was a meeting at the IOC wherein Taekwondo was attempting to become an Olympic Sport. The Japanese IOC member said that Taekwondo is nothing more than a Korean version of Karate, and therefore it should not become an Olympic sport, but rather Karate should be admitted. Dr. Un Yong KIM responded by saying no, Taekwondo is not karate but rather has its roots in Korean history going back 2000 years. Here, look at these cave paintings and statues.

That is interesting, but I believe there was rather more myth-making than that anecdote relates. It came from all sides, not just the KKW. Even from those outside of TKD, such as tang soo do factions at one point.

Tournament fighters are the most visible examples that would adopt modern kicking. But I am sure there are self defense types who added in Taekwondo kicks. I'll go see if I can find you more examples.

I'm not looking for individuals. I am sure that takes place. I'm actually a good example of someone who considers himself primarily a karate person yet has retained/adopted certain facets of Korean MA kicking.

I'm more interested in discussion of entire karate ryu or ryu-ha that adopted TKD kicks. I just don't think that happened by and large. Karate systems have considerably different tactical goals than TKD systems to. It would make little sense for most of them to borrow things like ax kicks or jumping 360 kicks.

Yeah, but the kicks aren't performed in the same way. In shotokan, we used to lift our leg up like a dog peeing and kick with the ball of the foot like a horizontal roundhouse.

I understand classical Shotokan technique still fits the interesting description you've given. If you consult the texts like Dynamic Karate by Nakayama, there it is plain writ.

There is an instructor here who teaches shorin ryu who is very proud of his roundhouse kick, and he does it like a taekwondo person. You could say that his branch has adopted the taekwondo roundhouse.

Which ryu-ha of Shorin-ryu?

And we never did any sort of spinning back kick when I learned shotokan. Our back kick was more like a mule kick directed straight backwards. There was no spin. If you are doing spin back kick then that is an adaptation from korean martial arts. Even if it was decades ago, that does not mean it hasn't been adapted from korean styles.

Hmm, that's not necessarily the case. Spinning back kicks are well known in styles that predate TKD, such as cha quan for example. I wasn't alive when Nakayama codified what is now known as classical JKA karate, but you can find the usage of kaiten ushiro-geri in the JKA tournaments in which men like Enoeda or Kanazawa competed. This would have been circa the sixties at least.

The point is, practitioners from other styles are adopting taekwondo and other korean based martial arts. Lyoto Machida claims a shotokan background but his kicks look more like korean style kicking than shotokan, at least the shotokan I learned.

Sure. I've never disputed that individual practitioners pick up ideas here and there. What I doubt is that there is any systemic or organizational movement in karate to adopt technique from TKD either now or in the immediate past.

 

[dancingalone]

Taekkyon is alive and well.

A recreation of it anyway. Similar to the Korean sword arts, I believe.

I can't find the article I read right now, but I recall reading something online about Song Duk Ki admitting he hadn't practiced taekkyon in years and that he had forgotten most of it. I'll source the article later if I can find it.

If people want to practice a reconstructed sport, I see no problems with that. It's probably something very enjoyable.

 

[puunui]

I am telling you what others have said verbatim in my presence. You ascribe their misstatements as arising from a 'cultural overlay', something you cannot know is true or not. Some may be making an intelligent connection to the past. Others are undoubtedly engaging full bore in the continuation of the myth.

Maybe they truly believe that taekwondo is 2000 years old. And they wouldn't be wrong, given the cultural overlay of using leg techniques for fighting, taekkyon and all of that.
.


That is interesting, but I believe there was rather more myth-making than that anecdote relates. It came from all sides, not just the KKW. Even from those outside of TKD, such as tang soo do factions at one point.

I'm more interested in discussion of entire karate ryu or ryu-ha that adopted TKD kicks. I just don't think that happened by and large.

ok.

Karate systems have considerably different tactical goals than TKD systems to.

What is the difference between taekwondo and karate as far as tactical goals go?

Which ryu-ha of Shorin-ryu?

His teacher was Chibana Sensei. I don't think he named his own ryu. He's not that kind of guy.

Hmm, that's not necessarily the case. Spinning back kicks are well known in styles that predate TKD, such as cha quan for example. I wasn't alive when Nakayama codified what is now known as classical JKA karate, but you can find the usage of kaiten ushiro-geri in the JKA tournaments in which men like Enoeda or Kanazawa competed. This would have been circa the sixties at least.

I was practicing Shotokan in the 60's and we weren't doing any spin back kicks. My teacher, Sensei Ken Funakoshi, learned from Kanazawa Sensei from the early 60's. The only kick we really did as far as tournaments or sparring went was front kick.

I've never disputed that individual practitioners pick up ideas here and there. What I doubt is that there is any systemic or organizational movement in karate to adopt technique from TKD either now or in the immediate past.

Organizations are run by people, specifically individuals. So if an individual instructor picks it up, then like your situation, your "ryu" picks it up as well, as something that you passed on to your students.

But I understand what you are saying, as well as the point you are making. it's the karate vs. 2000 year thing popping up again. you focus on one thing, and me on the other.

 

[puunui]

I recall reading something online about Song Duk Ki admitting he hadn't practiced taekkyon in years and that he had forgotten most of it.

He probably did stop for a long time and perhaps he did forget a lot of what he knew. But I also believe that he remembered a lot of it as well, at least the main parts. I haven't played dodge ball in decades, but I am pretty sure i could organize a game if I wanted to that substantially recreates what we did as kids, even if I may have forgotten some of the rules. Does that mean that my version of dodge ball is somehow invalid and that I am nothing more than a dodge ball revisionist and reconstructionist?

I know that there are techniques in taekkyon that no one knows what the purpose was, so they cataloged those and kept them so that in the future perhaps someone can figure out where it is supposed to go.

 

[dancingalone]

He probably did stop for a long time and perhaps he did forget a lot of what he knew. But I also believe that he remembered a lot of it as well, at least the main parts. I haven't played dodge ball in decades, but I am pretty sure i could organize a game if I wanted to that substantially recreates what we did as kids, even if I may have forgotten some of the rules. Does that mean that my version of dodge ball is somehow invalid and that I am nothing more than a dodge ball revisionist and reconstructionist?

I know that there are techniques in taekkyon that no one knows what the purpose was, so they cataloged those and kept them so that in the future perhaps someone can figure out where it is supposed to go.

I didn't say it was invalid. A reconstruction, yes, which is the truth. Surely the new taekkyon can find an audience while being completely candid about its origins.

Like I said, it's probably a great game/sport to play. I am an avid tennis player and I know what is played now is very different from what was played during the times of the Sun King, even if the name is the same. And taekkyon seems to have rather more rules/ritual dance components to it, making it considerably more complex to reinvent than dodgeball.

 

[dancingalone]

What is the difference between taekwondo and karate as far as tactical goals go?

I've studied Okinawan Goju-ryu (Jundokan lineage) and Maysubayashi Shorin-ryu. Neither would be considered a long-range style as undoubtedly modern taekwondo would have to be. Thus no need or desire to practice the esoteric kicks from taekwondo.

His teacher was Chibana Sensei. I don't think he named his own ryu. He's not that kind of guy.

We used to have some Shorinkan members here. Perhaps they can speak up if they are reading. I don't think they have ax kicks or jumping 360 kicks either. Certainly Matsubayashi does not.

I was practicing Shotokan in the 60's and we weren't doing any spin back kicks. My teacher, Sensei Ken Funakoshi, learned from Kanazawa Sensei from the early 60's. The only kick we really did as far as tournaments or sparring went was front kick.

I believe Asai did it in a match against the stocky JKA instructor... Can't recall his name. There are other examples. However, I'm certainly willing to acknowledge that karate styles simply kick a lot less than the Korean styles do and much more conservatively as well. And so kaiten ushiro-geri would have been a 'wow' technique, not one considered bread and butter like mae-geri.