Should Taekwondo be standardized?

[terryl965]

I enjoy your posts Terry!

So you are saying it "can't" happen. I am inquiring into "why" it should or "why it should not happen"...a slightly different discussion.

Obviously in one arena-the Kukkiwon, feels it should happen. As I mentioned, Kukkiwon has had in place educational programs to try to make this happen. Kukkiwon obviously has not been successful, especially in places like the United States where there is no mandate (political or social) to have standardization. My own impression is that other countries may be more "standardized" than the U.S. Still, a journey of a 1000 miles begins with a step...

To focus the discussion: Who loses or wins if there is standardization? Who loses or wins if there is no standardization?


Thanks for the thoughtful responses thus far!

Miles

Miles I understand your post but me personally believe this will never happen for the power to be cannot or will not let themself be be little by the other or so they feel. We as a whole will lose out of the very aspect of the Art, i know I sometimes do not make that much sense but it is the Art that is left out in the end not the sport and I'm in it for the Art.
Tonight was a a coaches meeting in Dallas for the Texas state tournament of course not sanction this year and is not a qualifier and all they did was push about a poomse seminar with thew WTF poomse expert and as was brought up by another gentlemen tonight it will be his word and the next tournament it will be somebody erlse giving there opion, as long as it is like this no way no how can they standerlize TKD.

 

[47MartialMan]

It is about power/control, politics, and money......this is why there are different organizations in the first place.....therefore the standards will be different also

 

[terryl965]

Just another thought... in order to have followers, we should have a vote.
Democracy instead of dictatorship. Those included would be more apt to follow. Its all about communication and how you would communicate with that many? Well, questionaires/surveys first to every club, probably to every black belt just like that survey. Like the sine wave and the snap kick. Which is better? Which should be discarded? Which of all should be kept? Can we teach sport and traditional at the same time, is there enough time? I don't expect anyone to answer my questions really. I just have those popping in my head.

BTW a little off subject, I just sent off, today finally for my Kukkiwon certificates for me, my son and daughter, because I believe they do mean something. I guess I was only the second or third one in my school's history to want one. But that, I also believe is because students weren't educated about it. I learned about it on Martialtalk. All about communication. TW

Tw you can not have democracy this is a Art those that choice to follow needs to understand it is a dictatorship I train you follow until the day you are able to train yourself and your following.
On another subject congrats on sending for your certification today let me know when you recieved them.

 

[terryl965]

by the way wish my team good luck tommorrow at state this year taking 24 hopefully no-ones get hurt and they all will have fun while the win.

 

[DuneViking]

Then there is the loyalty factor to one's grandmaster. If all the grandmaster's don't get into it, roll up their sleeves, put in their 2c and have it honesty viewed and considered equally, there will probably be followings of that grandmaster, still out of the organization. My master says he won't join USA TKD because of the corruption and because of decisions made at tournaments. His grandmaster has gone away from it too. What would it take for them to recognize a new organization?
TigerWoman

I have heard stories for years about how many of the egocentric Korean masters are more worried about the business end of things, and of vast corruption at the highest levels, not from just one source, but from several, citing news reports of officails at the highest levels being tried for corruption involving the equivalent of millions of dollars.

 

[47MartialMan]

I have heard stories for years about how many of the egocentric Korean masters are more worried about the business end of things, and of vast corruption at the highest levels, not from just one source, but from several, citing news reports of officails at the highest levels being tried for corruption involving the equivalent of millions of dollars.Hmmn goes back to my previous post.....however, a few "bad apples" shouldn't ruin the "barrel"

 

[Andy Cap]

It would take a core of absolutely honest, humble and motivated leaders. And money should not be close to the top of the motivators. It would be sad to think we can't find enough of those type of leaders. Or maybe I'm an idealist, but those attributes should already be there in the higher echelon. TW

That sums it up nicely. Tae Kwon Do was the unification of the Kwans into one style and look how wonderfully that worked - LOL.

 

[JanneM]

That sums it up nicely. Tae Kwon Do was the unification of the Kwans into one style and look how wonderfully that worked - LOL.

And by that you think that it should not be worthy ideal...

 

[Andy Cap]

What I mean by that is that the unification of the Kwans created more bad blood and politics than it was worth. The Kwans were never unified as each did what they wanted in terms of forms and practice anyways. Look at how many forms systems came out of the unification - Gen Choi's systems, palgwes, tae guk, some continued in pyung ahn, and I am certain there are others I have not considered. So the traditional aspect of Tae Kwon Do (Korean Martial Arts) is even further strained.

As na ideal, well what is the ideal? A competition sport based martial art or a technical traditional style based art?

 

[TigerWoman]

Tw you can not have democracy this is a Art those that choice to follow needs to understand it is a dictatorship I train you follow until the day you are able to train yourself and your following.
On another subject congrats on sending for your certification today let me know when you recieved them.

I believe in the dictatorship until you get to master level, so you learn..someone has to push you beyond your limits and guide you. It can't be a choice whether to do those 6000 front kicks...well, for me it is. (knee wears out) A black belt meeting could have a discussion and could answer a questionaire for his master though and the master could input to his grandmaster. All the grandmasters would have meeting and have a discussion, seminar about what is better to represent the art and if humility and genuine motivation to make TKD stronger was there instead of ego and money factors....the money actually would follow from a better viewed organization.

But in this army, no grandmaster can lose rank or be demoted because of bad behavior or lack of humility. I find that interesting that there are no stopgaps. Probably because once a black belt with that much capability, it can't be taken away, so we have fragmented organizations instead. A master could be a head of an organization-many schools and not be in the loop. Ego produces fragmented organizations. Money corrupts, as in when a grandmaster demands all testing fees, profit from a school, pays the overhead and the master is the hired help. So the master splits. No rules for how the grandmaster is supposed to act??? But that is a different subject..off again. But maybe that is part of the organizational problem. Less loyalty in US than in Korea?

BTW, good luck on your tournament Terry! 24 is a really good showing! And I will pray no one gets hurt. TW

 

[Andy Cap]

But in this army, no grandmaster can lose rank or be demoted because of bad behavior or lack of humility. I find that interesting that there are no stopgaps. Probably because once a black belt with that much capability, it can't be taken away, so we have fragmented organizations instead. A master could be a head of an organization-many schools and not be in the loop. Ego produces fragmented organizations. Money corrupts, as in when a grandmaster demands all testing fees, profit from a school, pays the overhead and the master is the hired help. So the master splits. No rules for how the grandmaster is supposed to act??? But that is a different subject..off again. But maybe that is part of the organizational problem. Less loyalty in US than in Korea?

Bingo again! Also in these times we have people that strive for rank in any way they can. Just yesterday I discovered that one of my juniors is now somehow a 6th dan! This made me laugh because I received my 4th dan in 1998 and at that time he was still a 3rd dan. So in 7 years he has gone from 3rd dan to 6th dan. The way he did this was he jumped from organization to organization. Now he has his own organization because he is a 6th dan and feels he has it figured out. No doubt he will be a 7th dan grandmaster in a few short years, and a new organization is born.

 

[JanneM]

What I mean by that is that the unification of the Kwans created more bad blood and politics than it was worth. The Kwans were never unified as each did what they wanted in terms of forms and practice anyways. Look at how many forms systems came out of the unification - Gen Choi's systems, palgwes, tae guk, some continued in pyung ahn, and I am certain there are others I have not considered. So the traditional aspect of Tae Kwon Do (Korean Martial Arts) is even further strained.

As na ideal, well what is the ideal? A competition sport based martial art or a technical traditional style based art?

When kwans merged as taesoodo and later as taekwondo they all agreed that new set of forms should be made. Palgwes was created. Palgwes was replaced with Taegukgs and taeguk became the legitime poomse of Kukkiwon for the promotions.

Diffences of kwans are brought up later on for the same reason that different organizations and "styles" are formed. Money pover and ego.

 

[TigerWoman]

Bingo again! Also in these times we have people that strive for rank in any way they can. Just yesterday I discovered that one of my juniors is now somehow a 6th dan! This made me laugh because I received my 4th dan in 1998 and at that time he was still a 3rd dan. So in 7 years he has gone from 3rd dan to 6th dan. The way he did this was he jumped from organization to organization. Now he has his own organization because he is a 6th dan and feels he has it figured out. No doubt he will be a 7th dan grandmaster in a few short years, and a new organization is born.

So there are alot of illegitimate masters and grandmasters out there. Just find someone higher, sympathetic and not necessarily legitimate to advance you. But how do you get around the age/time between grade requirement for Kukkiwon? Or is this Tang Soo Do? What certification is there for that?If the ITF and WTF were unified and standardized-stronger, and identified as legit, wouldn't it force out the illegitimate by forcing them to show they have put in the time or were credentialed by a certified master/grandmaster? Big tangle that. TW

 

[Miles]

But how do you get around the age/time between grade requirement for Kukkiwon? Or is this Tang Soo Do? What certification is there for that?If the ITF and WTF were unified and standardized-stronger, and identified as legit, wouldn't it force out the illegitimate by forcing them to show they have put in the time or were credentialed by a certified master/grandmaster? Big tangle that. TW

How do you get around the age/time grade requirements you ask? Easy=you get a computer program, draft up your own certification-it is called a "Kinko-won" (no offense to Kinko's!)

If you are pro-standardization or anti-standardization, like everything else, it starts with one person either submitting to the standards or not....

Miles

BTW Terry, good luck for your students!!!

 

[Miles]

What I mean by that is that the unification of the Kwans created more bad blood and politics than it was worth. The Kwans were never unified as each did what they wanted in terms of forms and practice anyways. Look at how many forms systems came out of the unification - Gen Choi's systems, palgwes, tae guk, some continued in pyung ahn, and I am certain there are others I have not considered. So the traditional aspect of Tae Kwon Do (Korean Martial Arts) is even further strained.

As na ideal, well what is the ideal? A competition sport based martial art or a technical traditional style based art?

Andy, I disagree that the unification created bad blood-there is no "bad blood" in Korea-but anyone studying for less than 20 years doesn't know anything about the Kwans. Taekwondo is unified in Korea to the extent that they are doing things as close to a standard as possible. In other countries, such as the U.S., where there is no "central authority", people are free to do as they please-there are good and bad aspects to this freedom.

BTW, saw your post about your junior and his quick advance in grade. This is exactly what could not happen if everyone abided by a standard. I used to get mad at these sorts of folks, but most of the time the only person who is being fooled is themselves. I'd rather have integrity than another stripe (or 3).

Miles

 

[Andy Cap]

Yes, the junior was in tang Soo do, and i don't care about my rank compared to his. I care about what he represents. He very possibly could have done this in Tae Kwon Do as well. I have my 1st dan in TKD MDK from one instructor and my 2nd and 3rd dan from another instructor that never concerned himself with seeing my 1st dan certificate. I received my 4th dan without my instructor asking to see my certificate as well. Their reasoning was that they knew what a 4th dan should be able to do and know, and how they should act. Considering I was alreay a 4th dan in TSD for over 5 years he had no problem testing me.


Now as to the kwans and no bad blood...There were 4 sets of forms practice since the inception of TKD - Pyung Ahns, Gen. Choi's set, Palgwe, Tae Guk. The unification of the kwans failed right from teh get go as Kee, Hwang did not want his martial art governed by the Korean government. Some of his high ranking students left him and taught Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan. Meanwhile there were still other styles of Tae Kwon Do as well. TKD was never united in truth. Just the name was adopted. Still to this day we have the ITF vs WTF struggle. This is not a new battle front.

 

[Marginal]

So there are alot of illegitimate masters and grandmasters out there. Just find someone higher, sympathetic and not necessarily legitimate to advance you. But how do you get around the age/time between grade requirement for Kukkiwon? Or is this Tang Soo Do? What certification is there for that?If the ITF and WTF were unified and standardized-stronger, and identified as legit, wouldn't it force out the illegitimate by forcing them to show they have put in the time or were credentialed by a certified master/grandmaster? Big tangle that. TW

Gets even more gnarled once you start trying to merge ranks across orgs. A 7th dan's the minimum ranking for a master in the ITF. Vs 4th degree in another org, who's going to "humbly" take the demotion imlied with adopting one standard vs another?

 

[Miles]

Now as to the kwans and no bad blood...There were 4 sets of forms practice since the inception of TKD - Pyung Ahns, Gen. Choi's set, Palgwe, Tae Guk. The unification of the kwans failed right from teh get go as Kee, Hwang did not want his martial art governed by the Korean government. Some of his high ranking students left him and taught Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan. Meanwhile there were still other styles of Tae Kwon Do as well. TKD was never united in truth. Just the name was adopted. Still to this day we have the ITF vs WTF struggle. This is not a new battle front.

1. As far as poomsae is concerned, the creation of the Taegueks (the latest series of poomsae) was a unified effort with input from all the Kwans (in fact, that's why the Palgwe series was made "supplemental" is that the Jidokwan and Moo Duk Kwan did not participate). So unification through standardization is the trend, so to speak.

2. You are absolutely correct that not all of the early pioneers, notably Gen. Choi and GM Hwang Kee, did not fully participate in the unification process (I say "fully" because they were both instrumental in the process early on). They kept their respective "kwans" separate and globally even these groups have further splintered with the passing on their leaders. This is something which would not happen if there were standardization IMHO.

My original question was should Kukki-TKD be standardized? What do you think?

Miles

 

[Miles]

Gets even more gnarled once you start trying to merge ranks across orgs. A 7th dan's the minimum ranking for a master in the ITF. Vs 4th degree in another org, who's going to "humbly" take the demotion imlied with adopting one standard vs another?

This is off-topic slightly, but today is my 30th anniversary of training in Taekwondo. When I originally started, I was an ITF member. The Korean Master Instructor who was in charge of this region was a 4th dan. We called him "Master Yu." The ITF later may have changed the rank requirement for the title, but 30 yrs ago, in this region, it was 4th dan.

Miles

 

[Andy Cap]

Congratulations on the anniversary.