Should instruction be more open?

geezer

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Traditionally, it is often said that Wing Chun was a "secret style" and within any given generation, a sifu would train only a handful of students. After coming to Hong Kong, Grandmaster Yip was the first in his lineage to teach a large number of students, and Bruce Lee was probably the first to teach non-Chinese. Even today, with the various lineages of Wing Chun becoming one of the best known systems of Chinese martial art in the world, most sifu's are quite secretive about teaching all but the most basic techniques.

For example, my old Chinese sifu held back the dummy form and the weapons sets for many, many years. And learning from another sifu wasn't an option. That would be disloyal, and besides, his version was the best. And it is still that way in his organization. Also, there was a good deal of arrogance and jealousy between this man and his peers. Each, it seemed had their own distinct take on their Si-fu, Yip Man's teaching, and they all discounted the views of the others.

The reasons for this secrecy range from tradition and keeping "the best" to yourself, to simple commercialism. Often this sifu warned me not to give away information so openly, lest I "break my rice-bowl", that is to say "lose my source of income" by giving away too much, too fast. I always bore the brunt of these lectures, since I was young, idealistic, and eager to share.

Now, I'm old and cynical, ...and still appreciate it when people share. On this forum, I'm impressed with the openess of "Chinaboxer". His free videos are very informative, and he puts himself on the line. Some of the principles he learned from Hawkins Cheung and Gary Lam differ from what I learned. I find it interesting and valuable to compare approaches... something impossible to do if you are overly secretive or political. Far from breaking his rice bowl, I believe that he will gain students with such an approach. I just wish my old sifu had seen things more like that.

How about the rest of you. Do your sifus encourage openness and inquiry into how the other guys do things, or are they old school, clannish and secretive?
 

Nabakatsu

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I'm not too sure about my sifu, I'm not too sure he'd appreciate me looking into too many alternative wing chun schools, but, he's been fairly open about any questions I've asked, he has shown me stuff above my level, but stated that he wants me to do it the other way until I get a better grasp of it ect ect, I definitely have appreciated Jin's videos too, and I feel that is the best course of action to take. When I teach, which I intend to, I will definitely be as open as I feel it is safe to be. I wouldn't want to give people too much info, and confuse them! which at this point I find it hard to avoid doing.
 

K-man

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Interesting post coming just after I read in David Oddy's book 'The Goju-ryu Study Guide' about 'advanced beginners'. These are people who perform the basics really, really well but have never moved to the next level. Unfortunately I know a lot of teachers in that category. They are not holding back information from their students. The sad truth is, they can't teach what they don't know. If you would like a concrete example, look at the posts in this forum where people are questioning the value of kata. :asian:
 

chinaboxer

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first i want to thank you guys for the words of encouragement. i really do appreciate that.

i really can't speak on why instructors don't teach fully or withhold certain things from their students, because, i really don't know. i can only speculate. but what i can do is tell you without a doubt why i created my tutorial.

wing chun's worst enemy is the wing chun community. they constantly bash each other on youtube videos and each claims to know the "truth". this is such a silly way of thinking. the problem is that they focus on the "differences" when they really should be focusing on the "similarities".

wing chun is such a small part of the martial arts "pie", and here we are bickering over who's right and who's wrong. it's no different than a disfunctional family that keeps passing on it's issues to the next generation and so on. if nothing is done, the family unit crumbles, and that's what's happening to the wing chun community to the point now that i see it falling apart.

and what happens to any martial art that starts to have glaring holes in it's method because past instructors want to keep the so called "secrets" and not share them? it forces future instructors to "modify" what they know to "fill the gaps" of their training, keep doing that and you no longer have wing chun but rather something else.

now, don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to say that i know everything, cause i don't. but SOMEONE has to put a foot down and say, "hey, i'm not going to compromise the wing chun method" and i really don't see anyone doing that, and all the great wing chun instructors are unfortunately on their final years, we won't have them much longer, so in my own small way, i'm trying to maintain the "concepts and principles" of "why" wing chun movements work and share that with everyone.

i also have a video i shot about four months ago on "why i started the tutorial"...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgevV4zszoU&feature=PlayList&p=EADB866CFB6E550F
 

Si-Je

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I just LOVE you chinaboxer!
Right on!

Free love and Free wing chun!

I really believe that if the wing chun community ever got it all together and came forth as one and shared that the art would be colossal! If all would share their knowledge with eachother and the masters get together and master it all and teach it to students that have the gumption to stay the long haul and learn, then the style would only get stronger and more effective.

And the 'community' would be better too.

Too much bitchin' and moaning about who's whosy whatitz is the best. all the different styles of WT/WC work better or differently for different folks. Depending on your frame of mindset, body type, gender, and such.

But, truely. I'm thinking that alot of great wing chun knowledge is being squandered and lost possibly forever because of this "hoarding" of techniques and knowledge. Very alarming to me because I really want to know it all. ! lol!
(at least as much as I can get my mind on and get exposed to)

If the "masters" in the Wing Chun community would get together over a beer or something, make peace and just "get along" enough to train together and share, you would see Wing Chun "evolve" into an almost totally different "creature".
For the best, too.
 

chinaboxer

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yea, wouldn't that be amazing if the "old wing chun masters" actually got together with a singular purpose of maintaining the art? but like geezer's original post eluded to, i don't think it's ever going to happen. but regardless, hopefully, the next generation of instructors will be more willing to share and grow. although we don't always have to agree, i think it's important to "respect" each others methods.

oh, and i <3 you too!
:partyon:
Jin
 

profesormental

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Greetings.

I know of NO science that has ever gotten to a higher level of understanding, learning, teaching, knowledge and application without open sharing and publication of information and results.

This "closeness" has kept martial sciences back for many years. I say to you... look at videos from "masters" of the 1960's fighting and applying technique...

Most if not all is what we now consider beginner level fighting!

The open sharing that occurred in the 1960's elevated the level to the standards that we have now... and still they can be raised to much higher!! There was a closing of sharing by the late 70's, I think.

The next level will come when martial training becomes an accepted part of Physical Education curriculum and hard sciences are used as basis for all martial applications. This is the direction I am taking what and how I teach... little by little and the road has been hard... yet I will have good news hopefully by early next year!!

Now with more dissemination of information, we can more easily see and compare execution of skills and the bar has to be raised! Thus training that is clearly sub par will be identified as such. Yet still there is much to be done!

Sincerely,

Juan Mercado-Robles
 

qwksilver61

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Don't follow my lead and teach some jackass for two years....just so he decides that it was hard..... only to sign up with a Shaolin school to decide that what you was teaching him was real,and that he actually has to pay for it and that what you was telling him was right -on.WTF....rub it in my face already.............answer... for todays' got to have it now....sure but for the purist...no way..... teach Him/Her correctly
 

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