martial ARTIST vs MARTIAL artist

[chinaboxer]

Do we as martial artists focus to much on the "martial" side of the coin and not the "artist" side?

i mean, think about it, we all train very hard and put in alot of effort, time and money for years to improve our fighting skills. but out of the millions of martial artists how many actually have to use it to defend their lives in the street or the life of someone else? i'm not talking about "defending your ego" fights over spilled beer. i'm talking about someone ready to kill you, literally. maybe less than 1% of all martial artists in the world will ever have to face that situation.

so why do we train so hard and spend so much money for? this is a question i keep asking myself. and i think it's an important one.

so many people think that if you compete in the ring and do tons of sparring, you are "tough". but you wanna know who IMO are tougher? the father trying to raise a good family in a tough economy, or the single mother that has to work three jobs to support her children. now these guys are tough! why do i say this? because ultimately, it's "life" that will be our ultimate arena, it's "ourselves" that will be our greatest opponent.

and that's why i personally train so hard and spend lots of money on instruction and have been doing it for so long. to learn "how" to get through life without meeting force with force. so that when life comes at you hard, you have the training to get through it and continue on the journey.

this leads me to another question, why is it that every martial arts school has a "written" guide to the "martial" side of progressing from basic to high level or white belt to black belt as an example, but nobody has a "written" guide for the "artist" side? IMO this has to do with focusing too much on "technique" and the "if you do this, then i do that" mentality, which IMO is detrimental to a martial artist. but if you focus on the "concepts" and the "why" each and every movement works, then you are teaching yourself the "guide" to getting through life, such as "go straight", if you meet an obstacle don't meet it with force, go around it but always go straight, stay flexible but always go straight, this leads to traveling far on your journey.

i strive every day to be a "martial ARTIST" and not a "MARTIAL artist", because eventually when all of us get to the "top of the mountain", the view is the same for everyone.

take care and peace!

Jin

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I like to think of Karate as 'karate-do' or empty hand way. It is not martial, because it is for a person and not for a soldier. It is not an art, because it is a way. So I like thinking of myself as a karate-ka. I do karate because that is what I enjoy doing. It doesn't have to be 'for' anything; but if it one day helps me to save my own life, I will be glad of it.

For what it might be worth, as I understand it, tea-making and calligraphy are also a 'do' in Japanese. They don't happen to be my thing, but if they were, I'd do that instead of (or in addition to) karate, and not think about how I ultimately intended to put them to practical use.

 

[chinaboxer]

yea, i get what you're saying, very nice. in Chinese, the original meaning of "kung fu" only meant that you attained a high level through diligent training, so a cook could have high level kung fu or a bus driver etc...it wasn't until martial arts became popular here in the States that we started to relate the words "kung fu" specifically to martial arts.

 

[dungeonworks]

Although I am doing JKD Concepts now, I still work on SNT and have hopes of taking up Tai Chi or Bagua someday. I like the soft stuff too and feel it is good for many things. In Koei-Kan and TKD, I gained balance and maybe some improved stabilizer muscle strength. WC SNT helps me stay relaxed and seems to have helped me "feel" my root letting me gain power in shorter punches.

I feel a balanced aproach is best for me. Too much sparring and drills (non WC) makes me feel lacking in sensitivity. Too much forms or kata leave me desiring more sparring or physical action such as mitts, heavy bag, jogging, whatever...

 

[Dirty Dog]

Do we as martial artists focus to much on the "martial" side of the coin and not the "artist" side?

i mean, think about it, we all train very hard and put in alot of effort, time and money for years to improve our fighting skills. but out of the millions of martial artists how many actually have to use it to defend their lives in the street or the life of someone else? i'm not talking about "defending your ego" fights over spilled beer. i'm talking about someone ready to kill you, literally. maybe less than 1% of all martial artists in the world will ever have to face that situation.

Here's the problem with statistics. If you're in that 1% (which I assume is a random number, with no actual basis in fact) then the odds of needing your training to defend yourself are 100%. And I am in that 1%.

I train for many reasons. To make myself a better person. To live, not necessarily longer, but better. To slow the downhill slide those of us who are old enough to remember things like Nixon resigning the Presidency are experiencing. To have fun. To pass on what knowledge and experience I have to others. And because I am and ER/Flight nurse and there are a certain subset of patients who WILL require physical restraints.
And did I mention that it's just plain FUN?

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

This is an interesting phenomena, this Martial Artist thing...

less than 100 years ago, it was Quan Fa, Gar, etc. (China), Kenpo, Jujutsu, Te (Japan), boxing, wrestling, fencing (Occident).

This "Do" or "Way" phenomena comes from Japan in the early 1900's, as a way to promote martial activities as a way to improve character and other attributes. Also, to promote it more as a sport activity rather than a combat skill.

I don't consider myself an artist, since standards and effectiveness are open to interpretation. A martial science has standards that are founded on logic, comparison, observation and can relate to other sciences that it needs to improve, like physical education, biomechanics, neuroscience, psychology, kinesiology, medicine, etc.

The martial part also imparts the values and attitude of a Warrior to solve and do what has to be done to survive in confrontation, battle, and many times, just simple logistics of being alive, sheltered and fed!

The problem is that if you teach a skill, make sure that if it is needed, it WILL work, and work well... above expectations!

A pure artist cannot realistically make sure that what it does works... that is why architects need engineers to make their creations a reality.

I, and many of my students are in that little percent that needs it to work. If done recreationally, then it still needs to work... and work well! After making sure that they have some skill, then if it is what they want, can play at sports and other stuff.

Many times that skill, awareness and knowledge is what saves them from fighting, not their actual fists.

I had to make the decision to teach the best skills I could because I raised this same question. Others decided to teach the best martial sports they could so that they could get kids out of the streets. (I work do both!).

Choose your path and be honest about it. You will focus you intent and be much better for it.

Sincerely,

Juan Mercado-Robles
Wing Chun Kuen Fat SiFu
Academia de Artes Marciales de Carolina
Puerto Rico

 

[geezer]

I made a poor living for a few years as an artist and craftsman after earning my MFA in visual arts: sculpture, back in the '80s. Then I moved on to teaching art to make a dependable, livable wage and support my family. Over the last 15 years I've focused primarily on teaching ceramics, both as fine art and as fine craft. As and artist and teacher, I'd like to point out the distinction.

Fine arts in their purest form are held to be non-functional and exist exclusively for aesthetic enjoyment. Fine craft, by contrast, must be both functional and aesthetically expressive. In this sense, what we call martial arts is more of a fine craft, akin to fine ceramics, carpentry, blade-smithing, or what-have-you. The skilled craftsman, uses every bit of science and logic at his disposal to produce work of ever increasing quality, usefulness. But unlike the scientist, or engineer, he is equally concerned with personal aesthetic expression, and so is also an artist.

Science strives for results that are consistent, replicable and quantifiable. But, no matter how much science a craftsman uses, his results can never be exactly replicated by another since they are his own unique expression. They may reflect his region, period and chosen style, but if he is a master, his work is also uniquely his own.

Isn't this exactly what a true master of the martial arts acheives?

 

[chinaboxer]

i posted this question on a few forums and the answers and comments here at MartialTalk.com show that the folks here are pretty smart cookies. thanks for your viewpoints and for sharing them!

Jin

 

[Xue Sheng]

this leads me to another question, why is it that every martial arts school has a "written" guide to the "martial" side of progressing from basic to high level or white belt to black belt as an example, but nobody has a "written" guide for the "artist" side?

Actually every martial arts school dosenst have a written guide... but to the original question

Do I strive to be a martial ARTIST or a MARTIAL artist?

Actaully I strive for neither I strive to be a martial artist

 

[qwksilver61]

geeze louise.....I ask people that all the time......proof is in the brawl..fight like the common brawler......like a sissy....... or like a pugilist......
asteeeste or artiste? Rembrandt or Peter Max?hellooooo? ok....mas oyama much?

 

[qwksilver61]

yes I am goofy and weird too.....I like to reference Mas Oyama,to me, he is the essence of what a true Martial artist represents. while he may not be a Wing Tsun stylist he threw his whole being into the Martial arts.