Should I agree to taking my own class?

[l_uk3y]

Hey Guys.

Just asking a quick question which i think I know the answer to already but I want some constructive feedback.

I studied Wing Chun for around 6 years (In that time i spent a fair while assisting to train students (2nd highest ranked student at the time). I never reached an instructor level however. Our Sifu disappeared overseas unexpectedly leaving us all behind. Long story but either way I really miss being able to train in the system.

Now I learn Hapkido under a new school. My teacher is not into the money side of things but likes the idea of giving all his students an opportunity to grow as well as learn a mixture of skills. He has presented me with the idea that perhaps he could work with me to get a blackbelt if I can get myself to a close enough level with my Wing Chun that I could take my own class once a week to train other members of our school in Wing Chun however renamed as "koreanword" Wing Chun. This being a class I would teach with my Hapkido trainer (Head instructor of school) overseeing to make sure it is going in a suitable direction.

Personally I don't believe I can teach people to a high level in Wing Chun, although I can definately cover the mechanics of the system and the core principles. This is leading me to think maybe I shouldn't. The flip side is I really miss our Wing Chun school and I know several previous students are the same and would love to get together to train again. This is our opportunity.

The catch being there is one student from our school whom reached a level good enough to train (under our old schools rating). I'm thinking maybe I can try training with him to get myself back in sync with the system. Or in a perfect world. Come over and help running this class at my Hapkido's school. Ever since our old Sifu left, this student has been searching for someone to oversee us so we could continue training as a school but hasn't had any luck.

Just wondering on peoples opinions on whether I should go ahead and focus on trying to get the school going again rebadged slightly and overseen by a Korean system's school. This could be our last chance to get our old school back together and Wing Chun back in town (Country Australia. So not a lot of local options).
Or. Seen as my level is not quite there (at the time I was about 1.5 years away from my black, {every school around here seems to have diff belt ranks}). If I can talk the other student into being head trainer instead of myself then there wont be an issue at all.

What would you do under the same circumstances? Would you do it for a chance to bring your system back from the dead (locally I mean), or sadly decline as just didn't quite get there???

Sorry for long post. I don't think the question would work with little detail.
Cheers. Luke

 

[sgtmac_46]

What is your goal in teaching? If it's to transmit Wing Chun for the purity of the system to propagate it, you might be limited in that.

However, if your goal is to transmit practical techniques and training you learned within that system for SD purposes, along with other training, then why should you be limited a all? Doesn't sound like the plan is to call it Wing Chun, but rather, a hybrid style, which is certainly just fine. If you feel you have something to impart that is useful, go for it.

I don't recall that Bruce Lee trained formally in Wing Chun for more than 5 years under a master, from 54 to 59.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[l_uk3y]

Ultimately my goals of teaching would be "selfish in that I would love to train Wing Chun again to improve my own standards", but I also feel quite passionate about giving other students from our school an opportunity to learn a group of new techniques and thinking. I have personally found that the Wing Chun and Hapkido seem to link together very nicely. This side of things doesnt bother me as these students have a structure and would learn to add to their own skill base.

The bit that concerns me is newer students coming in thinking they would learn Wing Chun. I would be completely rude to consider anyone calling me sifu or any similar title as I simply "Am not". Whilst I feel I could train someone no problems upto my own level, I still have a long way to go myself before I consider myself worthy. I'm not sure I could offer them the complete system having only learnt 2 out of 3 empty hand forms and my butterfly sword form was never truely "polished".

That said. The idea of teaching does sound exciting and my wife (absolutely refuses to learn any martial art except for Wing Chun or Tai Chi) sounds quite excited about the prospect of being able to go back to training.

Luke

 

[Bruno@MT]

You don't have to be a blackbelt to teach, do you?

My teacher has been training in Gnbukan for 5 years or so. He is still on his way to blackbelt (it'll take some time in Genbukan) and he is very qualified to teach. Anyone in our dojo started at white a year ago. My sensei will have shodan before I get to the level is currently at.

Teaching will also improve you own understanding and give you a chance to build something great. So if you feel like you will enjoy it, I say go for it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Ultimately my goals of teaching would be "selfish in that I would love to train Wing Chun again to improve my own standards", but I also feel quite passionate about giving other students from our school an opportunity to learn a group of new techniques and thinking. I have personally found that the Wing Chun and Hapkido seem to link together very nicely. This side of things doesnt bother me as these students have a structure and would learn to add to their own skill base.

The bit that concerns me is newer students coming in thinking they would learn Wing Chun. I would be completely rude to consider anyone calling me sifu or any similar title as I simply "Am not". Whilst I feel I could train someone no problems upto my own level, I still have a long way to go myself before I consider myself worthy. I'm not sure I could offer them the complete system having only learnt 2 out of 3 empty hand forms and my butterfly sword form was never truely "polished".

That said. The idea of teaching does sound exciting and my wife (absolutely refuses to learn any martial art except for Wing Chun or Tai Chi) sounds quite excited about the prospect of being able to go back to training.

Luke

So long as you're honest and upfront about what you're teaching from the very beginning, there's no issue.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Teaching will keep up your skill and knowledge and may be of benefit to others in the class who want to learn something new. However be up front with them and let them know that you are not a black belt or a truly qualified instructor and that you are simply passing on what little knowledge you have for their benefit.

 

[l_uk3y]

I must say. Thanks for the support. More then anything I want our small town to have access to the system again. I was actually expecting a hint of a flaming due to the quantity of poor schools around with unqualified "mcdojo" teachers doing the rounds and the last thing I want is to bring disrespect to the style due to not having enough answers to fill the pot. I guess my other big fear is that I haven't studied Wing Chun as part of a class in about 2 years (Mostly forms, and some dummy practice at home). So i definitely need to get to work straight away to start bringing all the techniques and applications back up to where they should be.

Cheers. Luke

 

[geezer]

I must say. Thanks for the support. More then anything I want our small town to have access to the system again. I was actually expecting a hint of a flaming due to the quantity of poor schools around with unqualified "mcdojo" teachers doing the rounds and the last thing I want is to bring disrespect to the style due to not having enough answers to fill the pot. I guess my other big fear is that I haven't studied Wing Chun as part of a class in about 2 years (Mostly forms, and some dummy practice at home). So i definitely need to get to work straight away to start bringing all the techniques and applications back up to where they should be.

Cheers. Luke

OK, now a WC perspective. Go for it Dude!!! If you get enough people interested, you might even be able to bring in some Wing Chun people to give a guest seminar and as the group leader... you could arrange to get some private coaching. Who knows. But it sure sounds like it's worth a try.

 

[khand50]

if you are teaching a class but not misrepresenting yourself as something you are not, then it is not a bad thing to do. being a teacher, even of martial arts, does not imply that you are better than everyone else doing the same thing. if it did, we wouldnt have any schools. and you are not claiming even to be a "certified" teacher, just someone who would like to run a class and pass on his knowledge of a particular subject. if someone came along with greater knowledge, im sure you would have that person step in to either teach the class or help you get better.
people seem to be caught up in confusion over what teaching is about. i started martial arts in 1969 by teaching myself and then teaching my friends what i was learning from books and magazines. there was no pretense about mastery or black belts. i was just a kid who wanted to learn martial arts and there werent any schools or instructors around. so i made do with what i had. one year after i started i began training with a lifelong friend who was a brown belt in hapkido in 1970-71. we trained together for five years. nobody cared about rank. we just wanted knowledge. in the past 40 years i have gained rank in different arts but still my interest is in learning the arts, not getting the ranks. currently i am teaching my neighbor and am myself about to begin training with a fellow who is learning moy yat ving tsun in chicago when he can get there to train. he is allowed, by his instructor, to teach sil lum tao, chum kiu, and part of chi sao. he isnt an instructor in ving tsun, but was given permission to teach parts of it. he is an instructor in another style. irregardless of his status, i would still train with him to gain the knowledge in an art i havent learned as much as i would like. i used to know the sil lum tao, and i taught myself the mook jong form by building my own dummy and hand drawing the 116 movements according to an old book with yip man illustrations in it. i studied in a school years ago that incorporated wing chun into the class.
dont be afraid to move forward with teaching the class. all it can do is make you better because you will have to explain the techniques and theories of wing chun to others. get some books, videos, and find one person to work more with to help you demonstrate the art better. good luck with your class.

 

[wade]

IMO, NO, don't do it. If you don't feel that you have the necessary skills to teach someone else then you probably don't. Nothing worse than someone who thinks they know what they are doing and going out and teaching someone else who damn well won't know what they are doing. I know this is a "FEEL" good world we live in and where (point/light) contact tournaments likes to give everyone who shows up a medal, even when they lose. Well, IMO that is what you would be doing. Making people feel good while not really teaching them what they need to know. So, sorry, but teaching this as a class, I M O, it's still (NO).

On the other hand, you wanna get together with some people and play around to improve your, their's and your wife's skills, I say, Hell Yeah, go for it. THEN, when you feel that you have your stuff together and are ready to teach, then, and only then, go for it. Teach...................................

 

[khand50]

to paraphrase a line from the movie field of dreams....if you build it, they will come.....
honestly, if you dont have the self confidence to start teaching a class then no, dont do it. but, six years. thats a long enough time to grasp the fundamentals of any system.
a book on fencing that i had, written by a master fencer, stated that a fellow could begin teaching a fencing class after only ten weeks of instruction. after ten weeks, that fellow should know the basics of fencing to pass them along to others. yes, that fellow would have a fencing master over him.
i have seen tae kwon do instructors give classes over to blue belts. it happened to a friend of mine. his black belt left the area and in order to keep the class running his master told him to keep teaching the class. of course, in this case, he drove two hours north once a week to continue his tkd training. but you dont have that luxury.
bruce lee only had five years of wing chun. yet he formulated some of the most incredible martial concepts from that base. you have six years. yes, you have some work to do to get your wing chun "back on line" but you can do it.
like i stated in my previous post, if you are being honest about your skills to yourself as well as those training with you, then it isnt wrong. and your instructor in hapkido isnt telling you to go out and open a school somewhere and set yourself up as a teacher. he is only asking you to teach a class on the art to give others the benefit of your learning. in a way, he is helping you to grow.
if you open a class, you will probably find that some of your other classmates might come in and get started back up in it. think of the bruce lee students who disbanded after lee died. like bob bremer. bob had only three years with lee. he never received a certificate to teach. but he shares (teaches) his knowledge of jkd with others now. most of the guys who trained with lee didnt receive permission to teach, but they are all out there doing so now.
be your own man. dont let the so-called traditions of the past weigh you down and stop you from doing this, if you really want to do it. but like i said, be honest with yourself and those around you and they will respect you for it and you will be able to sleep at night. good luck.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think a good course of action would be to hone your skills as you are planning to. Also travel a ways to a qualified teacher and get some more training. If that teacher thinks you are ready and they will back you then go for it. This way your skills are good, you have an instructor connection and backing! That would definitely be my advice!

 

[khand50]

i dont know how you feel about william cheung, but he was located in australia for some time, im not sure where he is now. you might try locating the nearest school to you and see if you can go there to train. also tell them what your hapkido instructor asked you to do and see if they would sponsor you, if you dont feel confident to teach on your own.

 

[khand50]

i just googled wing chun in australia and both william cheung and jim fung have schools available. if you google them both you might find someone not too far from you.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Hey Guys.

Just asking a quick question which i think I know the answer to already but I want some constructive feedback.

I studied Wing Chun for around 6 years (In that time i spent a fair while assisting to train students (2nd highest ranked student at the time). I never reached an instructor level however. Our Sifu disappeared overseas unexpectedly leaving us all behind. Long story but either way I really miss being able to train in the system.

Luke
The question really is how much time (hours training) and effort during those six years did you put in learning the system? Because like some others have posted six years of training several hours a week both on the floor of a school or off the mat should have given you the skills to pass on some of what you learned.

Now I learn Hapkido under a new school. My teacher is not into the money side of things but likes the idea of giving all his students an opportunity to grow as well as learn a mixture of skills. He has presented me with the idea that perhaps he could work with me to get a blackbelt if I can get myself to a close enough level with my Wing Chun that I could take my own class once a week to train other members of our school in Wing Chun however renamed as "koreanword" Wing Chun. This being a class I would teach with my Hapkido trainer (Head instructor of school) overseeing to make sure it is going in a suitable direction.

This is a bit confusing. Are you saying that your Hapkido instructor is going to give you a black belt in Wing Chun, renamed with a Korean title? Or is it that you go get your black belt (or equivalent) in Wing Chun under a Wing Chun instructor and then you can teach Wing Chun (with a Korean name) at his school? Or is it that you are to get your black belt in Hapkido and then you can teach Wing Chun (renamed) at his school?

Personally I don't believe I can teach people to a high level in Wing Chun, although I can definately cover the mechanics of the system and the core principles. This is leading me to think maybe I shouldn't. The flip side is I really miss our Wing Chun school and I know several previous students are the same and would love to get together to train again. This is our opportunity.

This really depends upon the instructor/owner of the school's view more so than your view really. I mean it might not be in his goals/his plans to have you teach Wing Chun as a complete system in his school. He might not want you to teach your Wing Chun students/friends Wing Chun without them learning Hapkido or the schools main style. From the sounds of it they currently aren't training at that school so that leads me to believe they aren't interested in learning Hapkido.

The catch being there is one student from our school whom reached a level good enough to train (under our old schools rating). I'm thinking maybe I can try training with him to get myself back in sync with the system. Or in a perfect world. Come over and help running this class at my Hapkido's school. Ever since our old Sifu left, this student has been searching for someone to oversee us so we could continue training as a school but hasn't had any luck.

Don't get me wrong but this student isn't at your school and he isn't the one whom your instructor has asked to teach. Your instructor knows you already, he has seen you, he has taught you, he believes in you, he trusts you, from the sounds of the post this student you speak of isn't in the picture. So I wouldn't count on him or suggest him to teach the class to your instructor. So much as you training with him on the side great, so much as maybe bringing him in later, well you might be able to work that out as well. But for right now it is your instructor who has approached you, because he knows you. I'd stick with that.

Just wondering on peoples opinions on whether I should go ahead and focus on trying to get the school going again rebadged slightly and overseen by a Korean system's school. This could be our last chance to get our old school back together and Wing Chun back in town (Country Australia. So not a lot of local options).
Or. Seen as my level is not quite there (at the time I was about 1.5 years away from my black, {every school around here seems to have diff belt ranks}). If I can talk the other student into being head trainer instead of myself then there wont be an issue at all.

I can't stress this enough, your instructor's school is a Hapkido school not a Wing Chun school. I doubt if he is envisioning you planning on you getting your "old school back together and bringing Wing Chun back to town." This isn't about you as much as it is about his students (of which you are one), and a way to provide growth to them. Don't get me wrong this is very commendable on his part to provide them with the opportunity to learn from someone of your skill level, but I don't think this is him wanting to start teaching Wing Chun as a competition to his established program.

On the second part I high lighted, again he shouldn't even be a concern because your instructor approached you not him. Don't worry about him, don't try and factor him in. You talk things over with your instructor and you decide if you can teach and move on.

What would you do under the same circumstances? Would you do it for a chance to bring your system back from the dead (locally I mean), or sadly decline as just didn't quite get there???

Sorry for long post. I don't think the question would work with little detail.
Cheers. Luke

Here are my suggestions for you, having been through similar circumstances in the past (as in wanting to teach a system in an established school).
1) Sit down with the owner and find out what his plans are for the class.
2) Listen very carefully what his plans are, you can have input, but remember this isn't about you it's about him, his school and his students.
3) Go home and think about what his plans are and what he wants, figure out if you can live with his plans, or close to them and then work on a game plan on how to achieve those plans.
4) After figuring out a game plan sit down once again with him and go over your ideas of how to meet his plans or expectations and see if you can both work them out.
5) I would discuss the sticky subject matter of finances/compensation etc. etc. for your teaching class and make sure you and your instructor understand what is expected of him as the owner and you as an instructor at his school.
Think about is this a separate program, with a separate fee structure apart from the Hapkido (this might be an avenue for your former students to attend). Or is it going to be an add on for his existing/new students? Or a hybrid program with Hapkido students paying one thing and new students taking only Wing Chun something else?
Are you going to be compensated for your teaching duties? Reduced rates for his Hapkido program? Hourly wage? Or for free?
6) Discuss what exactly are your teaching duties to include, how often are classes, how long, equipment needed (who pays for it?), clean up pf the room etc. etc.
7) Then with his help and support put the plan into action and teach your class.

In the past I had plans to help broaden a school by trying to teach an arnis program for an instructor. But that wasn't really what he wanted, it was what I wanted, what I thought would be best for him and what I thought I heard he wanted. It was frustrating to say the least, I wasn't meeting his goals/vision nor did I meet mine.

On the subject of are you qualified to teach, only you know that really. From the sounds of it I say you are qualified to teach a beginning class, from the sounds of it I'm sure you could pass on some of the concepts of Wing Chun to even advanced Hapkido students and help them grow.

I believe we as instructors all believe in ourselves (some time to much so), and we sometimes believe that others with a minimal amount of training can in fact pass on and teach beginning skills. In time as we gain more insight into our art from teaching and more skill in training we get better and can teach more advanced material. I personally wouldn't worry about whether I can teach advanced Wing Chun right now, you aren't going to be teaching advanced Wing Chun students, it sounds like your main student base will be Hakido students who will all be beginners for several years, and there will be time to catch up and advance your skill.

You don't need to be a master to teach, you don't need to be a full level instructor even. You just need to be passionate about what you teach, and have the knowledge of how to and the ability to pass on what you know.

The last thing to think about is this. I know it sounds like I'm harping on the fact that it is all about your instructor's school and his students and not about you. You stated My teacher is not into the money side of things but likes the idea of giving all his students an opportunity to grow as well as learn a mixture of skills, this is commendable however he still derives some money for his efforts, which he won't want to lose, and he has students which he cares about and he has invested effort in. He is taking a chance on you that you won't disrupt the apple cart (so to speak), but Wing Chun is not his primary art, it's yours. And if you go in there thinking I'm going to teach Wing Chun as a pure system, and bring it back to town etc. etc. then you are possibly going to be seen as a threat, maybe not now but later when you have developed your own outside students. Then it can disrupt the school and mess up everything for the students, the school, the owner, and you.

So you might want to instead not worry about teaching Wing Chun as a pure system and trying to get ranked as an instructor in it and so on for this class. Rather try and see how the basics, the concepts, the drills of Wing Chun that you know can augment or complement the Hapkido and use it as a blend to further your knowledge and the students of the school.

I hope this might help give you something to think on.
Mark

 

[Wey]

Maybe you should teach a few "guinea pigs" first before you start the actual course. Find out how much you really know, what you need to improve on, etc.

Good luck man!

 

[geezer]

Maybe you should teach a few "guinea pigs" first before you start the actual course. Find out how much you really know, what you need to improve on, etc.

Good luck man!

Good idea, ...and if you succeed, please post a video. I think it would be really cute to see guinea pigs doing Wing Chun. Even better than the hamster dance!