Shorin Ji Ryu

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
interesting that one of the ars that made/make up
shorin ji kempo is ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do
can you tell me anything about this art?

tshadowchaser,

ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do is an amalgamation of it Founder's (Kori Hisataka) Martial studies in Ryukyu karate jutsu, Kudaka Jima Shishi-ryu Bojutsu, as well as the family style Kudaka-ryu Karate-Do (through his father and grandfather). Kaiso Hisataka also studied Saijutsu, Yari(spear), sumo, judo (4 Dan from kodokan), and various Chinese Kempo Arts (such as Hakkyoku Kempo, and Shaolin Chaun Fa).

Salute,

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisador
He was talking about pervasive, systematic, repeated mistakes--not one-off typos. Those are accidents.

Arnisador,

I agree, yet I thought some humor was in order.

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Tony,
Respectfully, you need to do a bit of research on this one. The back ground of Hakko Ryu or Daito Ryu is quit clear in Shorinji Kempo. Kaiso Hisataka the founder of ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan also resided in China. Kaiso Hisataka was stationed in Beijing, via Kowa and Tienjin. I am not sure where these two got together, in China or Japan but their history is documented. You can contact Shihan Masayuki Hisataka (Kori's son) in Japan. I believe the Honbu Dojo is at the waseda area of Tokyo's Shinjuku ward.

Good luck,

Well, there you're completely wrong. Kaiso had no contact with any such person while in China. I just looked it up in the Kaiso Monogatari.

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Arnisador,

I agree, yet I thought some humor was in order.

Pity it wasn't funny.
You should write speeches for the president...

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Well, there you're completely wrong. Kaiso had no contact with any such person while in China. I just looked it up in the Kaiso Monogatari.

Tony,
Please read my post again and if you will follow the contact informtion. Then come to the table and discredit someone with a lot more knowledge and background than yourself.

Respectfully,

 

[tshadowchaser]

do you know if ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do was taught on the island of Oakinawa and if so around what years

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
do you know if ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do was taught on the island of Oakinawa and if so around what years

Kori Hisataka established his first Dojo in 1945 upon returning to Japan under the name of ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan in Kumaoto prefecture in Kyushu. During the next few years he traveled to Okinawa on a few occasions. On one of these trips he was involved in the establishment of All Okinawa Karate-Do Federation where Chosin Chibana became the first president and Hisataka undertook the position of Technical Director. Some times after 1953, he moved his family to Tokyo, re-establishing his Dojo in Shimo-Kitazawa, Setagaya ward. In 1955 the Hombu was moved to Waseda area.

Hisataka's first teacher as he calls it in the system of ShorinjiRyu (Shorin) was Ankoh Asato. His other major influence was Chotoku Kyan. He also recieved instruction from his father and Grandfather in the family style Kudaka-Ryu Karate-Do. He undertook the study of Kobudo with Sanda Kanagusuku of uhuchuku-Den and in the Kudaka Jima shishiryu bojutsu.

In 1930, Hisataka wih Kyan and Ryosei Kuwa, toured Taiwan and demonstrated Okinawan Karate. Kyan returned to Okinawa, Kuwae stayed in Taiwan, and Hisataka went to China. Starting from Fukien province. There he studied the Fukien Tenbin Bo. Following Fukien he continued to travel throughout China training in different systems of Chuan Fa (shorinji Kempo), Hakkyoken Kempo, as well as Chinese medicine. In 1932, he visited Manchuria where he gave a demonstration of Kusanku kata and shishiryu bo. This was done in front of the Emperor of Manchuria following the boxer rebellion where the leading chinese martial artists were killed. His travels also took him to Russia and Afganistan.

Upon returning to Okinawa, he commenced a tour of Japan with Chotoku Kyan, where they visited different Kendo and Judo Dojo and competed against their champions successfully. While in Japan he studied Judo at Kodokan under Sanpo Toku and received his Yondan.

During the WWII, he was stationed in Manchuria along the Manchurian railway.
He and his family were initially based in Kowa, near the border China and Mongolia. Later moved to the cities of Cho Kakko, Bakudashu, Sarachi. In Sarachi he met Minoru Mochizuki, Kudan(one of the most senior MA in Japan- Direct student of Jigoro Kano And Morihei Ueshiba). They regularly trained and taught together at Mochizuki's Budokan. At this time Hisataka devised a system called Happo Ken based on Kusanku kata, Chuan fa and Hakkyokuken. This was done to pass as much as possible to Mochizuki Sensei in a short time available.

That's all for now. I hope that I answered your question!

Salute,

 

[tshadowchaser]

Thank you

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Tony,
Please read my post again and if you will follow the contact informtion. Then come to the table and discredit someone with a lot more knowledge and background than yourself.

Respectfully,

What do you mean? I'm the Shorinji Kenshi here, and I think I know more about my art than you do.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I am enjoying the information being posted DO NOT spoil it with " I know more than you do" war
Please both of you keep posting informative articles
Now would either of you care to post the names of your basic forms
so we can see if they are the same

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
I am enjoying the information being posted DO NOT spoil it with " I know more than you do" war
Please both of you keep posting informative articles
Now would either of you care to post the names of your basic forms
so we can see if they are the same

I said I know more about Shorinji Kempo; but that's obvious, don't you think? I'm the only Shorinji Kenshi on the boards.
Basic kata:
Tenchiken
Giwaken
Byakurenken

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
What do you mean? I'm the Shorinji Kenshi here, and I think I know more about my art than you do.

Kenshi Tony,

I don't usually get into this kind of bickering, but you seem to have a knack to bring it out of people.

You might think my friend that you know more about Shorinji Kempo, but I invite you to do more research out side the tight box you're in and to take off your blinders.

According to your profile you are a Sandan. You study a system that is based on a three Kyu system prior to Shodan. So two to three years top to shodan and then another 5 to 7 to Sandan. How am I doing so far. So to add all this if you have been at this art continuously, you have been studying no more than 10 years. Well I hate to surprise you but I got two more decades on you buddy. Two systems of Kenpo/Kempo, a senior ranking in Karate-Do (Shotokan) plus detail study of Various systems of Okinawan and Japanese Karate/Kobudo through kata, Bunkai, Oyo, and Kakushi.

For the last eight years I have been a personal student/teacher of Obata Toshishiro Kaiso in the arts of Shinkendo, Toyama Ryu, Aikido and Jujutsu.
Additionally, I do train with couple of Shorinji Kenshi in LA, and there is nothing they do that I have not seen and done exactly or a variation of.

I have also trained at Hoitsugan Dojo of the late Nakayama sensei in your beloved Japan.

So Mr. Kehoe, if you got something to share wih us please do so, otherwise....

Remember it is not what you say but how you say it. Courtesy and respect go a long way.

Got to go teach, I'll catch you later.

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Kenshi Tony,

I don't usually get into this kind of bickering, but you seem to have a knack to bring it out of people.

You might think my friend that you know more about Shorinji Kempo, but I invite you to do more research out side the tight box you're in and to take off your blinders.

According to your profile you are a Sandan. You study a system that is based on a three Kyu system prior to Shodan. So two to three years top to shodan and then another 5 to 7 to Sandan. How am I doing so far. So to add all this if you have been at this art continuously, you have been studying no more than 10 years. Well I hate to surprise you but I got two more decades on you buddy. Two systems of Kenpo/Kempo, a senior ranking in Karate-Do (Shotokan) plus detail study of Various systems of Okinawan and Japanese Karate/Kobudo through kata, Bunkai, Oyo, and Kakushi.

For the last eight years I have been a personal student/teacher of Obata Toshishiro Kaiso in the arts of Shinkendo, Toyama Ryu, Aikido and Jujutsu.
Additionally, I do train with couple of Shorinji Kenshi in LA, and there is nothing they do that I have not seen and done exactly or a variation of.

I have also trained at Hoitsugan Dojo of the late Nakayama sensei in your beloved Japan.

So Mr. Kehoe, if you got something to share wih us please do so, otherwise....

Remember it is not what you say but how you say it. Courtesy and respect go a long way.

Got to go teach, I'll catch you later.

Wrong; I've been a kenshi for 19 years this year.
My point, which is worth reiterating, is that I am the only Shorinji Kenshi on the boards, so it is obvious I know more about Shorinji Kempo than anyone else here; similarly, an Aikidoka will know more about Aikido. You are not a Shorinuji Kenshi, are you? Quite frankly, I don't beleive you when you say you "train with Shorinji Kenshi". Do you mean to say that you are signed up to train formally? Becasue if so, you can't train in any other style; the reules prohibit it. You should know this. If, however, you mean that you meet informally with a couple of Shorinji Kenshi, then that is another matter, but your experience of Shorinji Kempo will be clearly limited.
What is the meaning of bu and the essence of budo?

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
I am enjoying the information being posted DO NOT spoil it with " I know more than you do" war
Please both of you keep posting informative articles
Now would either of you care to post the names of your basic forms
so we can see if they are the same

I am not a ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Practitioner but I have studied and teach some the variations of their Kata. Their kata catalog goes as follow:

Sanchin

Naihanchin (not the usual tekki version, but more of the chinese Variant) with different enbusen.

Nijushiho (based on the tomari version, very different from Shito ryu and Shotokan versions)

Heian Shodan(pinan Ichi)
Heian Yondan

Sankakutobi (Developed by the founder's son, Masayuki Hisataka)

Happiken (Created by the founder's son)

Koshiki Naihanchin (mainstream tekki with more kicks (mae-geri) added by Masayuki)

Seisan (pretty much in line with Hangetsu)

Bassai (an interesting variation closer to seibukan's version)

And Chinto, Sochin,Jion, Kosokun (kusoku).

The system is rich in yakusoku Kumite(two man set forms). Bogu (padded) full contact sparring, and self defense techniques based on Judo/JuJutsu.

Salute,

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
I am not a ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Practitioner but I have studied and teach some the variations of their Kata.

Neither am I; I'm a Shorinji Kenshi.

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Their kata catalog goes as follow:

Sanchin

Naihanchin (not the usual tekki version, but more of the chinese Variant) with different enbusen.

Nijushiho (based on the tomari version, very different from Shito ryu and Shotokan versions)

Heian Shodan(pinan Ichi)
Heian Yondan

Sankakutobi (Developed by the founder's son, Masayuki Hisataka)

Happiken (Created by the founder's son)

Koshiki Naihanchin (mainstream tekki with more kicks (mae-geri) added by Masayuki)

Seisan (pretty much in line with Hangetsu)

Bassai (an interesting variation closer to seibukan's version)

And Chinto, Sochin,Jion, Kosokun (kusoku).

These are completely different from Shorinji Kempo; they are Karate kata.
There used to be a great website that showed a video of Tenchiken kata; I'll see if I can find it again and post a link here.

Originally posted by kenmpoka
The system is rich in yakusoku Kumite(two man set forms). Bogu (padded) full contact sparring, and self defense techniques based on Judo/JuJutsu.

We wear do, mitts, and helmets for full contact.
Here's a funny story. When I took sandan, it was midsummer and really hot and humid hear in Tokyo, so with the full gear on, I was sweating profusely, which caused my helmet to slip down over my eyes, so I couldn't see anything. I heard my opponent move, and made uraken, and hit him bang on the temple--and the examiner called the point! Sheer luck!

 

[arnisador]

There's a reference here to Shorinji Karate Do.

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Wrong; I've been a kenshi for 19 years this year.
My point, which is worth reiterating, is that I am the only Shorinji Kenshi on the boards, so it is obvious I know more about Shorinji Kempo than anyone else here; similarly, an Aikidoka will know more about Aikido. You are not a Shorinuji Kenshi, are you? Quite frankly, I don't beleive you when you say you "train with Shorinji Kenshi". Do you mean to say that you are signed up to train formally? Becasue if so, you can't train in any other style; the reules prohibit it. You should know this. If, however, you mean that you meet informally with a couple of Shorinji Kenshi, then that is another matter, but your experience of Shorinji Kempo will be clearly limited.
What is the meaning of bu and the essence of budo?

Well I congratulate you on your 19 years. I just hope you did not take a sabbatical for 10 of those years.LOL

Do I know your system verbatim? No.
Do I have more than an idea what you folks do? Absolutely yes.
Am I formally signed up to train? No. Do you think I need to?

Btw I did do some checking on you, and you seem to have a reputation of being a "hot head" among your own as well!!!

I don't mean to be rude to you, but like I said you need to cool it here a bit otherwise you'll get chewed up by everyone. I don't mind learning a thing or two from you. So, behave Kenshi.

"Nana korobi yaoki, Jinsei wa kore karada"

Salute,

P.S. The shorinji Kenkokan syllabus post was not meant for you and I am aware of the karate Kata and was not comparing to Shorinji Kempo. Btw, Did you contact Shihan Masayuki Hisataka? He is in your neck of woods. Do you ever wonder where the koshiki style of kumite in your system comes from?

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Do I have more than an idea what you folks do? Absolutely yes.

No, you don't.

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Am I formally signed up to train? No. Do you think I need to?

Yes, absolutely. Just like you need to be a lawyer to understand the law, or a doctor to understand medicine, you need to be a Kenshi to understand Shorinji Kempo.

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Btw I did do some checking on you, and you seem to have a reputation of being a "hot head" among your own as well!!!

So what? It doesn't make me wrong.
BTW, where did you do the "checking"?

Originally posted by kenmpoka
I don't mean to be rude to you, but like I said you need to cool it here a bit otherwise you'll get chewed up by everyone. I don't mind learning a thing or two from you. So, behave Kenshi.

Then don't try to tell me my art.

Originally posted by kenmpoka
"Nana korobi yaoki, Jinsei wa kore karada"

Shinjitsu no mikata to suru koto, sore koso ore no jinsei da.

Originally posted by kenmpoka
P.S. The shorinji Kenkokan syllabus post was not meant for you and I am aware of the karate Kata and was not comparing to Shorinji Kempo. Btw, Did you contact Shihan Masayuki Hisataka? He is in your neck of woods. Do you ever wonder where the koshiki style of kumite in your system comes from?

We don't have what you arereferring to as "kumite" in Shorinji Kempo; do you mean randori?

 

[Seig]

Tony,
Some interesting information there, but do you not feel your rants are a bit rude?
Seig
-Just Curious-

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Seig
Tony,
Some interesting information there, but do you not feel your rants are a bit rude?
Seig
-Just Curious-

No. Why do people who know nothing aboutthe subject want to argue with those who are qualified to have an opinion? I find that very galling. Like Richard Dawkins said:

I am sometimes accused of arrogant intolerance in my treatment of creationists. Of course arrogance is an unpleasant characteristic, and I should hate to be thought arrogant in a general way. But there are limits! To get some idea of what it is like being a professional student of evolution, asked to have a serious debate with creationists, the following comparison is a fair one. Imagine yourself a classical scholar who has spent a lifetime studying Roman history in all its rich detail. Now somebody comes along, with a degree in marine engineering or mediaeval musicology, and tries to argue that the Romans never existed. Wouldn't you find it hard to suppress your impatience? And mightn't it look a bit like arrogance?

How can a man who has never been a Shorinji Kenshi think he has something to teach me, when I've been a Shorinji Kenshi for 19 years this November? Does he disagree with his doctor about medical advice? His lawyer about legal advice? I've dedicated half my life to this art. I think he should accept that I know what I'm talking about.
Now, why don't you ask him the same question?