Shaolin - Truth and Fiction

[Matt Stone]

I know we have been discussing this issue elsewhere, and there have been valid points made by both sides of this issue...

I was surfing around another forum when I came across this thread that seemed to shed a little light on the goings on in the modern Shaolin temple:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=14048

Interesting how there is a division between Religious Monks and Martial Monks, how the martial training appears not to be conducted on the temple grounds, and how the martial training is questionable in its content...

I wonder how close to the historical model this is...?

 

[tshadowchaser]

Thanks for the link. Some interesting reading on the subject.

I had heard it discussed elsewhere that much of what was being taught today was more modern Wu Shu not what the original sets where, but I have no proof one way or another.
Anyone else have knowledge on this subject. I seem to remember one of the members saying something on the subject befor most likely relateing to the Theater presentation that tours.
Shadow

 

[Matt Stone]

This website, Shaolin Temple Secular Disciple's Union, has more information for those looking into training at Shaolin in modern times.

I have previously corresponded with Mr. Heming via his Yahoo! Club for the same topic, and he is a very nice person (though incredibly busy, and often unable to respond to messages via the web due to his training schedule).

I don't recall whether his training actually takes place in the temple, I think he is training just down the road from it...

Just more info FYI...

:samurai: :tank:

 

[theneuhauser]

i dont believe that there is a school within the temple either. at least thats what my instructor (li jinheng) tells me. he was a member and later coach for the beijing wushu team. from what i gather from him, the team would do demos and film at the temple and there are many schools around it as well. many of those schools teach to visiting internationals, like a summer camp.

now if you are a tourist, your probably going to end up with a 5000 dollar modern wushu lesson. the more permanent students get to practice a much broader range of martial arts.

he explained to me that the best way to train out there is the old way, get to know an instructor here who can write you an introduction to a respected trainer there.

that doesnt mean that you will have it any easier, i know somebody who was sent to china to further his internal studies. he arrived with letter in hand and spent the next several months laboring for the teacher in addition to training. just like a bad hong kong kung fu movie!

 

[LanceWildcat1]

From what I have been told by my instructor, who just got back, is that there is no training in the temple. The training takes place OUTSIDE the temple grounds. The temple, itself, is for worship.

 

[theneuhauser]

my body is my temple?

if i was a shaolin monk, then i would have to train outside myself?

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by LanceWildcat1

From what I have been told by my instructor, who just got back, is that there is no training in the temple. The training takes place OUTSIDE the temple grounds. The temple, itself, is for worship.

Just kind of an interesting observation...

If the training today, in an age where physical martial training to protect one's own life is no longer as necessary as it may have been several hundred years ago, is held outside the temple because the temple is used for worship and is a holy place of religious pursuits, would it have been so different back in the mythic past when Shaolin is said to have birthed so many martial traditions?

And if that would be so, how could they train outside the temple with the risk of attack and discovery to great? Wouldn't all the bandits and so on that were such a danger to the monks back then (forcing them to learn so many deadly martial arts) have been a danger to a poorly defended exterior school? Who would guard the monks while they trained?

Not trying to start a fight, but all of this lends credence to my arguments elsewhere... There were religious Shaolin and martial Shaolin, with the martial Shaolin being less priests than guards, and the religious Shaolin perhaps training to strengthen their bodies, but likely little else.

Just an observation. I could be wrong - at least that is what my wife usually tells me...

 

[chufeng]

Not agreeing or disagreeing with anything...
just a point that seems to have been lost in this discussion.

TaMo, when he arrived at Shaolin, found that the monks were transcribing Buddhist texts and repeating sutras at given times throughout the day...somehow, the monks thought that the best way to spread Buddhism was to put it in print for distribution...TaMo corrected the abbot and told him that no one was really PRACTICING Buddhism as it was intended...

Sidhartha Gautama, told his disciples that to worship him was a fruitless path...to ask Buddha for graces was NOT the way to Truth...that each of them had to follow the path of Buddha...that is, to DO what he did...hence the disciplines that brought Gautama to an awakened state were to be PRACTICED by his followers...that is what TaMo contributed to Shaolin...

Many of the disciplines were strenuous...many of the monks were unable to remain focused on the REAL TRAINING...and so, supplementary disciplines were introduced by TaMo to increase the monks' stamina.

Holding certain postures and doing yogic breathing, for instance.

So, it can be surmised that the monks were NOT martially trained when TaMo arrived at Shaolin...they were weak...
BUT, who is to say that the legends of what came after are entirely wrong...in every legend, there is a kernel of truth.

Bottom line, No one REALLY knows whether the monks of that time developed the skills that are attributed to them...

It is nice to think that Man can rise to that level of discipline and, as a source of inspiration, I'm inclined to think that although embelished, there is much truth in the legend...it is entirely possible to train in a deadly art AND revere life...it is entirely possible to have a SOLID foundation of morality and ethics and still be PREPARED to do battle when necessary...the higher the skill, the less likely it is that you will use it...the higher the skill, if used, the less likely it is that lethal force is necessary...

My opinion...and that isn't worth all that much...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[theneuhauser]

much of this has to be speculation, anyway, so heres some more...

If the training today, in an age where physical martial training to protect one's own life is no longer as necessary as it may have been several hundred years ago, is held outside the temple because the temple is used for worship and is a holy place of religious pursuits, would it have been so different back in the mythic past when Shaolin is said to have birthed so many martial traditions?

the only reason i can think of that this might be the case now and not before is because, since the temple underwent it's most recent restoration, it has become one of the biggest tourist attractions after the great wall. maybe they are making room for all those people?

And if that would be so, how could they train outside the temple with the risk of attack and discovery to great? Wouldn't all the bandits and so on that were such a danger to the monks back then (forcing them to learn so many deadly martial arts) have been a danger to a poorly defended exterior school? Who would guard the monks while they trained?

from what ive seen in photos and video, doesnt the temple have an outer and an inner area with the heart of the temple being probably the most sacred section? your concept of the martial monk and the holy monk is one of my favorites, as we talked about on another thread. it would be highly plausible that all the monks had some level of training, and some were preordained to be the combatants and maybe less holy or whatever. it has some evidence today in the lineage of the martial monks that travel for show. i dont know, but whether they all were fighters to a degree, or just some of them is probably less important than the stories that artists would visit the temple and share with the other fighters there, which fostered the expansion of the arts. if that is true, then shaolin really made a huge impact.
im also inclined to believe that it wasnt simply fighters sharing with other giang hu types while in the temple, the exchange of knowledge and techniques would have to be supportred by at least a few perrenial residents to the temple, right? what i mean is that in order for the occasional visiting master to share his style with another, there would have to be at least a few people there for him to make a connection with, not just anyone, and what are the chances that another quality martial artist was at the temple at the same time, unless they were permanent residents? so the question that i would have would be, who were the permanent residents of shaolin a millenia ago? was it only monks and aspiring holymen, or was there a whole community?
and my other qustion would be concerning the village near shaolin(was it chen village?) and what went on there. i think the pieces of the puzzle would come together then.

now all we need on the boards is a shaolin priest and a very bored historian....

BUT, who is to say that the legends of what came after are entirely wrong...in every legend, there is a kernel of truth.

Bottom line, No one REALLY knows whether the monks of that time developed the skills that are attributed to them...

chufeng, you are so right, and maybe we will never know.

an interesting antecdote would be the history of my primary style, wah lum- here's the 411..... (quoted fr. wahlum homepage)
In the early 1900's an already accomplished martial artist by the name of Lee Kwan Shan entered into the Wah Lum Monastery of Ping To district in Shantung province. There he committed himself to an arduous ten year discipleship in the Praying Mantis system. His teacher, Abbot Ching Yeung, was the fourth generation of the original Praying Mantis system. When Master Lee left the temple he traveled widely, eventually settling down at Sha Cheng village in Canton province. It was here that he combined his Praying Mantis style with his own family system, the Tam Tui (seeking leg) style. Lee Kwan Shan's style was noted for his long fist forms, spear and pole techniques, and whirling broadsword skills. Before his death in 1948 Lee accepted his youngest and last disciple, Pui Chan.

since it's birth is just over a century ago, i think that it gives a good example of what might have been the scenario of the spread of the arts by way of shaolin a much longer time ago...
:asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian:

 

[Nightingale]

interesting reading...