Tan Tui / Spring Leg

[Dronak]

I was wondering if anyone had some more information on tan tui (spring leg) routines than I do and could share it with me. Part of our training for the northern Shaolin long fist kung fu style we're doing involves learning and practicing these routines. We use them primarily as part of our stamina training excercises (basic stances, kicks, and tan tui are usually all part of that). We learned five routines in fall 2001 and our teacher said there were a total of ten. We haven't done the last five yet. Since I like to have references on what I've learned when possible, I went looking for a book on tan tui and found _Ten Routine Spring Leg_ by Ma Zhenbang, Chinese Kung-Fu Series 6. I just received it today and took a quick look over the routines. The first five appear to be similar to what we've learned which is definitely a good thing. That means I can simply make notes of any differences and use the book as a reminder when necessary. However, it also looks like there are some definite differences in the movements despite the overall routines being basically the same. I've also read that some styles have 12 tan tui routines and not 10 like ours does. Basically I'm wondering how much variation there are in the routines. Can anyone provide some information on that? Are the routines basically the same for all styles with some smaller differences in the movements as appears to be the case with what I've learned and this book at first glance? Or are there some major differences where even the basic routines don't look the same in different styles? I did a little bit of web searching and found some sites which I should read through later. I was wondering if anyone here could provide some more information on the subject though, too. Thanks in advance.

 

[theneuhauser]

tan tui is different from tam tui isnt it?

i think that tan tui is spring leg and tam tui is seeking leg.
so far my experience is in the latter, but with LiJenheng as my instructor, im sure i will be doing some of the tan tui soon. we'll see

 

[Dronak]

I don't know. I think either our teacher or others in the class have said that tan tui translates to something like springy legs. The handouts we got when we started have it spelled as both "ton tuie" and "tan tuie". I started using "tan tui" because that's how most places on the web seem to spell it. I wouldn't be surprised if there are different routines serving other purposes with different, but similar names. I don't know anything about them though.

 

[theneuhauser]

springy legs are fun to have!

 

[Dronak]

Maybe that's why we practice them fairly regularly then, huh? Oh, BTW, I found a couple of articles on tan tui routines in the YMAA newsletter archives ( http://www.ymaa.com/ ), issues 44-46 as I recall. The three articles cover the first five of ten routines and also look similar to the ones we learned. There are still a few differences, I think, but I haven't really sat down with them or the book I bought and done a close comparison yet. Since I don't know much about the routines, I was hoping that someone else on the web could give me some more information. The book I have has a "folk song" with very brief descriptions of what each routine is trying to teach you. But these routines aren't quite the same as the ones we learned. Are the essential points of the routines the same then, the goals and ends the same even if the exact methods of performing them differ? It would be nice to know more about them. We do the tan tui routines as part of our practices, but that's about all they are to us right now -- short practice routines. I'd like to know what else there is to them so I can keep that in mind and hopefully make my practice of them more meaningful.

 

[Dronak]

Oh, I had forgotten about this. Some time back our teacher e-mailed us images of the postures in the first form he taught us. I did some web searching and found a site containing them and other photos. Things changed since I first found them (and I found a second site with the same pages), but they still have photos of the tan tui routines we're learning. You can find them at http://netcity7.web.hinet.net/UserData/84765504/TanFoot01.htm (this is the second site, but it seems to load faster than the first one I found). They don't have a photo for every count we do in every routine, but they might be enough to give you the idea of the form, the major positions in them. BTW, the page is written in Chinese, as are the other pages on that site, so I can't read them, but I mainly want the photos as an extra reference. If anyone who can read Chinese would care to translate the pages for me though . . .

 

[Flying Crane]

here is an old thread I thought I would bring back from the dead.

According to my sifu, there is a difference between the Buddhist/Shaolin Longfist tam tui and the Islamic Longfist tam tui. Apparently one of them has 10 routines, and the other has 12, but which is which I dont know, as I haven't learned it. He says the set is a compilation of basic techniques repeated several times, and used to drill these basics.

As far as differences go, it is my experience that many of the Chinese forms have been borrowed from one system to another. Often, things get changed in the borrowing. Different lineages spring up, and things get changed for various reasons. While the overall form may look very similar, it would be surprising to find something completely identical, if it is done by two different schools, especially if the schools teach different systems but have the form in common.

My teacher has pointed out examples in his own training. He has studied under teachers who were at the end of their teaching career and near the end of their life. How things were taught to my sifu, as one of the last students of a particular teacher, was quite different from how the earlier students were taught, who learned from the sifu when he was much younger. People change, and often how they do things will change as they age. Differences in the Chinese arts are very common.

 

[Xue Sheng]

here is an old thread I thought I would bring back from the dead.

According to my sifu, there is a difference between the Buddhist/Shaolin Longfist tam tui and the Islamic Longfist tam tui. Apparently one of them has 10 routines, and the other has 12, but which is which I dont know, as I haven't learned it. He says the set is a compilation of basic techniques repeated several times, and used to drill these basics.

I have heard this but I was not sure, thanks for the info. I only learned one routine completely and I started to learn a sword form but never finished I am fairly sure that it was Buddhist/Shaolin based.

As far as differences go, it is my experience that many of the Chinese forms have been borrowed from one system to another. Often, things get changed in the borrowing. Different lineages spring up, and things get changed for various reasons. While the overall form may look very similar, it would be surprising to find something completely identical, if it is done by two different schools, especially if the schools teach different systems but have the form in common.

Very true. You can see some forms that are similar between Shaolin and Tai Chi. And the you have different styles of the same thing, Chen and Yang Tai Chi, Hebei Shanxi, and Henan style Xingyi and the various forms of Bagua. Bagua even has some Xingyi as part of it. As a matter of fact I have seen variations within Hebei 5-elements Xingyi as taught by my first sifu and my most recent Xingyi sifu.

My teacher has pointed out examples in his own training. He has studied under teachers who were at the end of their teaching career and near the end of their life. How things were taught to my sifu, as one of the last students of a particular teacher, was quite different from how the earlier students were taught, who learned from the sifu when he was much younger. People change, and often how they do things will change as they age. Differences in the Chinese arts are very common.

This also explains some of the differences you see in Yang style Tai Chi. Yang Chengfu taught differently as he got older.

And you are correct there are many similarities and yet quite a few differences between styles and within styles in Chinese martial arts.