Shaolin-Do Curriculum?

[rickster]

It's a funny thing. People see someone doing something different, and they decide, "I want to learn that, it MUST be valuable because THOSE people are doing it. I don't have it and if I learn it then it MUST make me better". This is a flawed way of looking at it. The question that people don't seem to ask themselves is, "Is there a good reason to have THAT thing, will it actually improve what I am doing? Is there actually a reason why I SHOULD NOT have that stuff? Might that stuff actually get in the way of my development? Is it compatible, or is it incompatible with the method that I train?"

that is what people never consider and never ask themselves. They just decide, if there is more out there then I want it, no matter what.

People tend not to ask themselves these basic questions.

Complacency is one reason

Ignorance is bliss is another

Another thing, is the "marketing".

Often people are sold unto a name and have their own "idea" what they should be doing.

In the case of said martial org, they are simply providing the service that those whom entertain the "idea"

There has to be more (even if it is non-applicable) in order to hold onto those with the "idea"


Those with the "idea" could never understand "The Cup of Tea"

 

[rickster]

Flying Crane, awsome post above. Too many people want to collect. Always looking for more, more, MORE! What is the point if you do not really understand even the first thing in your collection? This is certainly not relegated to martial arts only.

For many years I taught at a school that used various animal styles. The entire system had a base that connected the animals together. Very often I would have students tell me that they wanted to be promoted so they could train in this animal or that weapon. The funny thing to me was, if the student concentrated on the first few forms they would have everything that particular system had to offer. Instead there was always the next thing. Now I see many advanced students from that school that have many forms that they can perform flawlessly, yet they cannot bridge the forms to thier fighting, for the very reasons you bring up in your post.

This was their "idea"

It is the same with belt ranking....it is the "idea"

In some cases, a "idea" is not bestowed with logical thinking

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am beginning to get the feeling that part of the problem is that there is a lot of information given out by SD, about CMA, claiming it to historic fact when in fact it is not fact at all and easily prove to be erroneous by anyone with any knowledge of CMA and its history

 

[Flying Crane]

I am beginning to get the feeling that part of the problem is that there is a lot of information given out by SD, about CMA, claiming it to historic fact when in fact it is not fact at all and easily prove to be erroneous by anyone with any knowledge of CMA and its history

This all got started before it became easy to fact-check. Can't un-ring that bell.

 

[rickster]

This all got started before it became easy to fact-check. Can't un-ring that bell.

Sure...But you can stop claiming to have a loud ring

 

[Xue Sheng]

This all got started before it became easy to fact-check. Can't un-ring that bell.

But they still seem to tell all comers that it is fact and people believe it to be fact when in fact it isn't.

I just heard a non-MA discussion about propaganda this past weekend and it was rather interesting and applied to American politics. The more you say something no matter how wrong or false it might be, if you say it enough, to enough people, they begin to believe it. Scary actually, but could be the same thing I guess

 

[Flying Crane]

Sure...But you can stop claiming to have a loud ring

But they still seem to tell all comers that it is fact and people believe it to be fact when in fact it isn't.

I just heard a non-MA discussion about propaganda this past weekend and it was rather interesting and applied to American politics. The more you say something no matter how wrong or false it might be, if you say it enough, to enough people, they begin to believe it. Scary actually, but could be the same thing I guess

yeah it's true, but I think the thing is, after all those decades of telling the stories, suddenly they would be faced with the prospect of retracting most of it. That would be embarrassing. I think it's just easier to put on the blinders and assume most of the students won't do their own research.

 

[Flying Crane]

The more you say something no matter how wrong or false it might be, if you say it enough, to enough people, they begin to believe it.

I believe that is exactly what the Nazis did, and how they got much of Germany to be complicit with their policies. And it doesn't work with little lies. Those are too easy to see thru. It's the big, outrageous lies that work. Tell it often enough, scream it loudly enough, and the masses begin to believe it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I believe that is exactly what the Nazis did, and how they got much of Germany to be complicit with their policies. And it doesn't work with little lies. Those are too easy to see thru. It's the big, outrageous lies that work. Tell it often enough, scream it loudly enough, and the masses begin to believe it.

Yes they did use that and that is exactly it and it is very possible what is going on here today, but this is the stuff another thread.

 

[Xue Sheng]

yeah it's true, but I think the thing is, after all those decades of telling the stories, suddenly they would be faced with the prospect of retracting most of it. That would be embarrassing. I think it's just easier to put on the blinders and assume most of the students won't do their own research.

I think you are probably right

 

[clfsean]

Yes they did use that and that is exactly it and it is very possible what is going on here today, but this is the stuff another thread.

There's a deposition taken in California this past year of SKT. Enlightening... PM me if you want a link to download it.

 

[Blaze Dragon]

yeah, I spent a bit of time with SD back in the very early 1990s. I am familiar with what is in the curriculum and the very long lists of forms and systems that they want to claim ownership of. I also have a Tracy kenpo background which has done some of the same thing, tho in a different way and perhaps not to the same level. But I am firmly of the opinion that "more is better" is not the best approach to training and learning a martial art, especially when that "more" is just a hodge-podge thrown together without a consistant methodology driving it all.

you mentioned you did some time with SD did you not find any value in your experience with SD? Just curious not attacking.

I've found great value from my instructor personally. I mean I've always been of a mind that once you know how to throw a punch you can throw a punch. I've studied boxing, karate, Tien Shan Pai, Tae Kwon Do, and so far my SD has been the best class to date. My Sifu, from my experience seems to have a firm understand of what he teaches, and I'm able to incorporate principles from the styles into what I consider my own personal fighting method. At the end of the day, the amount of forms I've been show are not as important as lessons such as utilizing my qi, and fajin and then tactics which have been invaluable to me personally.

For me martial arts has always been life, it's a way of expressing yourself. I can not accurately comment on comparing SD forms to the styles they come from because when it comes to said forms I've only done SD. I also can't comment on if they are doing it correctly by standards of those other styles. However there seems to be a genuine and useful methodology to SD. I agree and can see from the videos that SD guys dont' do the forms as the styles the form comes from like Long Fist. However I don't personally feel that makes the form worthless or the style comparable to a Lamborghini with a lawn mower engine maybe more a Camaro engine at least.

This of course is my personal views and experiences. It might be different if I had attended another SD school I don't know maybe I got lucky with a gifted Sifu. All I know is I feel I can honestly say I know martial arts and have no regrets or plans to leave SD.

 

[Blaze Dragon]

Also side note, what part of the history are you making reference too? I know there are some stories blown out of proportion, such as the child who was killed by the sandburn teacher, or the poison dagger. However I don't see how these make the entire history bogus...sure questionable, but I mean as far as the line of the GMs. There was a Fukien temple, whos to say the material didn't come from there? Or at least parts of it? Even the fleeing during the boxier rebellion and other suck stories may have some truth to them. I think you will lose facts and get things mixed up the more you tell a story.

Just my thoughts mind you.

 

[Flying Crane]

you mentioned you did some time with SD did you not find any value in your experience with SD? Just curious not attacking.

well, let me put it this way: I was in college at the time, was broke most of the time, and randomly met this guy training on campus whose wife was on the faculty. He would just come up to the athletic center to do his practice and I happened to bump into him. I was a Tracy kenpo shodan at the time, had no instructor since I had moved to college, and was interested in all things martial arts. He agreed to teach me his stuff and I was grateful for it, particularly since he never charged me a dime. I was broke, remember? I was fascinated with the Chinese arts, at least in concept, and this was my first exposure to such. So did I get something positive out of it? Yeah, I did. But in hindsight, after I had gained other experiences to give me perspective, I began to realize that it simply was not what it was presented as.

I believe Shaolin Do is a form of Kuntau. It's an Ethnically Chinese method that was brought over into Indonesia and took root there. It got mixed and influenced by other things, including perhaps some Indonesian methods, and sort of became its own thing. If that was how it had been presented to me, then I'd say there was nothing amiss. But it's the backstory of the Shaolin Temple, and Sifu The being THE grandmaster and such, and the notion that he has mastery of some 900 forms and dozens of systems, it's just not credible. I have a problem with how it is presented as being something more, and other than, what it really is. It seems that there's an attempt to keep cannibalizing stuff from other systems perhaps in order to support the big claims. But it's just kinda overmuch.

I believe there are probably SD people who can fight. Fighting really isn't all that hard and it's not difficult to hurt someone. You don't need perfect technique nor a superior method to do so. But I do not believe that what is being taught is an accurate reflection of what it is claimed to be.

I've found great value from my instructor personally. I mean I've always been of a mind that once you know how to throw a punch you can throw a punch.

see, I actually do not believe this. There are different ways to throw a punch, and in my opinion they are not all the same. Or rather, different systems have their own methodology for throwing their techniques, including their punches, and that methodology actually does differ from one system to another. The end result may be the same, but the process for developing the skill is different, and that's where it matters: sticking to a method that makes sense to you and works for you, and enables you to realize a high level of skill with your techniques. That's really what the difference between one system and another is: they are really just different approaches to training, which all [should] lead to the same result. But it's important to stick with a systematic methodology or else you just get kinda schitzophrenic with what you are doing.

I've studied boxing, karate, Tien Shan Pai, Tae Kwon Do, and so far my SD has been the best class to date.

that may well be, and if you are enjoying it, then keep on. I'm not telling you to not do it. But we are kinda trying to get you to see that there's more to the story, and more to what's out there, and more to a style or system than a collection of movements thrown into a jumble and called a "curriculum".

My Sifu, from my experience seems to have a firm understand of what he teaches, and I'm able to incorporate principles from the styles into what I consider my own personal fighting method. At the end of the day, the amount of forms I've been show hold no bearing as to the lessons I've adapted from applications. Some lessons such as utilizing my qi, and fajin and then tactics and applications have been invaluable to me personally.

could you give me some examples of the principles of the different style that you incorporate into what you do and how you practice? For example, what are the principles of Crane, or Tiger, or Bagua, that you've learned and can identify and explain how they work, and how you use them?

thanks

 

[WC_lun]

I believe one sentence in your post bears repeating; "But it's important to stick with a systematic methodology or else you just get kinda schitzophrenic with what you are doing."

Martial arts as a system is a method of teaching another how to apply violence in a self defense situation. If there is no defining true north for that methodology then you will not be trained effeciently, nor as effective as a system that has that. That is not to say that a system without that defining methodology cannot be enjoyable or give you what you want in a system, but it does mean that it is lacking something that makes fighting arts what they are.

 

[Flying Crane]

I believe one sentence in your post bears repeating; "But it's important to stick with a systematic methodology or else you just get kinda schitzophrenic with what you are doing."

Martial arts as a system is a method of teaching another how to apply violence in a self defense situation. If there is no defining true north for that methodology then you will not be trained effeciently, nor as effective as a system that has that. That is not to say that a system without that defining methodology cannot be enjoyable or give you what you want in a system, but it does mean that it is lacking something that makes fighting arts what they are.

aye, I've been thinking about this too. If you come to a crossroads with four choices and you don't know where the roads lead, you need to make a choice. If you start down one road, then question your decision and go back to the crossroads and choose another, then backtrack to choose the third, then decide to go back to the first again...well you just never make any progress down any of the roads. You never get anywhere because you keep jumping off the road to start a different one, before you make any progress.

Martial arts training does not have a map nor a GPS. You just gotta jump on the road and start training, and stick with it long enough to start understanding it and start seeing some progress.

 

[rickster]

aye, I've been thinking about this too. If you come to a crossroads with four choices and you don't know where the roads lead, you need to make a choice. If you start down one road, then question your decision and go back to the crossroads and choose another, then backtrack to choose the third, then decide to go back to the first again...well you just never make any progress down any of the roads. You never get anywhere because you keep jumping off the road to start a different one, before you make any progress.

Martial arts training does not have a map nor a GPS. You just gotta jump on the road and start training, and stick with it long enough to start understanding it and start seeing some progress.

Then there are those who follow the yellow brick road...never realising that the yellow is tainted by urine

 

[Flying Crane]

Then there are those who follow the yellow brick road...never realising that the yellow is tainted by urine

HA! that may be, in some cases

 

[DaleDugas]

I am sorry but the concepts of shaolin are not that of baguazhang and they do not mesh.

it is time to put to bed the claims of Shaolin Dohhh.

The ripped peoples material off and tried to pass it off as his own. enough said.

next.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am sorry but the concepts of shaolin are not that of baguazhang and they do not mesh.

it is time to put to bed the claims of Shaolin Dohhh.

The ripped peoples material off and tried to pass it off as his own. enough said.

next.

So from this I gather that I am not the only one who was thinking

Shaolin