Shaolin-Do Curriculum?

[clfsean]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I do see a difference in the videos, I do see a difference in graces, and extension, but I'm not sure as to what you mean but it's SD and not long fist, I don't know long fist. I am assuming you do long fist correct? I am just curious to get some outside perspective. I by no means am going to judge anyone in our out of SD I am just looking for some good conversation and some different perspectives. So I can get a more rounded idea of the differences in style from one school to the next.

thank you

Ok fair enough. Let me try this way. The video of the guy you showed is SD. He's done all the SD stuff from beginner to where he's at now... right, wrong or indifferent. He doesn't practice longfist basics, longfist drills, longfist mechanics/methods/theories, etc... he practices SD. All of his basics, drills, mechanics/methods/theories, etc... are focus on the SD core. So with that in mind, it's not a far leap or incorrect position to say, he doesn't do longfist.

The girl in the video however, does. She probably does some White Crane & Taiji too, given who her dad is, but that's not the point. The point is that her longfist is nothing but longfist. Her longfist basics, drills, mechanics/methods/theories, etc... are just that, longfist. She doesn't practice a myriad of "other forms", she does longfist.

SD has been very well documented & crawled over the carpet for "borrowing" sets from other styles & laying claim as theirs (authentic, original, "from the temple") through some very interesting story telling. You can't take a set from "X" style & lay claim to it & expect to perform it as intended. There's no background or basics involved. Sure, the set can be "done" by anybody (God knows I've seen it happen enough even away from SD). It's obvious using all the little things I mentioned above & more, to figure out who knows what & who just does a bad copy. The video of the SD is guy (again, not knocking athletism or gumption) is just that, a bad copy. It might be really good for SD, but it's not long fist.

Did that help any?

 

[Blaze Dragon]

Ok fair enough. Let me try this way. The video of the guy you showed is SD. He's done all the SD stuff from beginner to where he's at now... right, wrong or indifferent. He doesn't practice longfist basics, longfist drills, longfist mechanics/methods/theories, etc... he practices SD. All of his basics, drills, mechanics/methods/theories, etc... are focus on the SD core. So with that in mind, it's not a far leap or incorrect position to say, he doesn't do longfist.

The girl in the video however, does. She probably does some White Crane & Taiji too, given who her dad is, but that's not the point. The point is that her longfist is nothing but longfist. Her longfist basics, drills, mechanics/methods/theories, etc... are just that, longfist. She doesn't practice a myriad of "other forms", she does longfist.

SD has been very well documented & crawled over the carpet for "borrowing" sets from other styles & laying claim as theirs (authentic, original, "from the temple") through some very interesting story telling. You can't take a set from "X" style & lay claim to it & expect to perform it as intended. There's no background or basics involved. Sure, the set can be "done" by anybody (God knows I've seen it happen enough even away from SD). It's obvious using all the little things I mentioned above & more, to figure out who knows what & who just does a bad copy. The video of the SD is guy (again, not knocking athletism or gumption) is just that, a bad copy. It might be really good for SD, but it's not long fist.

Did that help any?

That makes a GREAT deal of sense thank you I never thought of it that way. Since SD has so many forms of different styles (regardless of how they got them, I understand the issues and concerns with the history that others have) They are still not focusing on ONE pure style, so essentially the influence of doing a mix of styles is showing through. kinda like if someone took TKD and then did karate vs someone who only did karate your gonna see some TKD influence and kicks? Is that what you mean?

Since he does Shaolin-Do and has not had ground up training in only long fist, he doesn't have the root core foundation for it to be "long fist"?

 

[clfsean]

That makes a GREAT deal of sense thank you I never thought of it that way. Since SD has so many forms of different styles (regardless of how they got them, I understand the issues and concerns with the history that others have) They are still not focusing on ONE pure style, so essentially the influence of doing a mix of styles is showing through. kinda like if someone took TKD and then did karate vs someone who only did karate your gonna see some TKD influence and kicks? Is that what you mean?

EXACTLY!!!

Since he does Shaolin-Do and has not had ground up training in only long fist, he doesn't have the root core foundation for it to be "long fist"?

You sir... win the kewpie doll for today! And also... apply that same thought to everything else that's not SD created.

 

[Xue Sheng]

No worries I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me



Hmmm I'm not sure where SD gets it from I'd have to ask sometime... As far as more to it then can be in one seminar, I completely understand. The seminar was only for the animals, and it was just meant as an introduction to the material. Like I mentioned though I am very very new to the techniques. However what I have been taught is awesome stuff I think I like the stories to. I am told a story about a move we do with the foot work for crushing fist (wood). Please excuse my spelling in advance as I've heard the story from my sifu I didn't read it. There was a man named Quo, (not sure how to spell sounds like ka-woah), and he was a famous xingyi guy, he had mastered crushing fist, he was challenged but I dont' remember the challenger's name, they signed a death weaver saying that if one died it was a test of skill among masters so the other was not held accountable. He fought and ended up killing the man. Someone, student of friend of the dead challenger, hid the document or something and he was arrested for murder. in prison they died a ball and chain to his one hand and one ankle. He worked on his crushing fist in prison and would have to drag up his back foot. this type of drag with the back foot at the moment of punching we call "half step quo" since he developed it don't know how historically accurate it is, but I believe my Sifu and I think it's a cool story

May I ask you a question? Seeing as how you are an experienced Xingyi guy. judging just by those videos from BL, What do you think? Is it recognizable as Xingyi to you? What are your thoughts on that?

I mean I do know there is supposed to be 900 forms in our system, i don't know because I've only heard of something like 200 or so, but with all that material I know not everyone in the entire system will learn all of it. So each person kinda picks a fields to study and master so part of it will live on. So I think there will be some differences form school to school and each teacher will be better at one thing then another.

I know it's unrelated to Xingyi, but I think there was a part talking about long fist. There is a form one of the instructors is doing and the video is called long fist. This Sifu Joe one of the best ones in my area, he runs his own school and I love watching it. just thought I might share, I dont' know this form or how it's supposed to look but I imagin hes doing it the right way, as he's always taking his art extremely seriously and loves it like most of the rest of us.

That was Gao Yunshen and except for the death waver part that is a true story and it is actually called half step Beng. Also one of the nicknames of another oldtime Xingyi guy "Hang Yunxiang" was Half Step Beng he ws also called “Iron Arms” and “Iron Feet Buddha” he was a good fighter, very powerful and was only about 5'2" tall

Good sight for history on some of the Xingyiquan masters of the past is XingyiMax
This is the page of famous figures

As for the BL videos.... Sorry but it is more karate than xingyiquan so looking at it as Xingyi it is rather bad. Xingyiquan 5 elements is based on Santi shi and there is no santi shi there. This is Xingyiquan

5 Elements Fist - Wuxingquan (woo shing chuan)

Piquan – Chopping Fist – Metal
Zuanquan – Drilling Fist – Water
Bengquan – Crushing Fist – Wood
Paoquan – Canon Fist – Fire
Hengquan – Crossing Fist - Earth

Also look here this is pretty good

 

[Xue Sheng]

No sorry... that's not long fist. That's a SD rendition of long fist. The guy is certainly athletic to run the pace he did, but that is long fist is set pattern/sequence only. The basics are SD, not long fist. The power generation is SD, not long fist. The application of technique is SD, not long fist. The understanding of the techniques in the set is SD, not long fist.

Long fist (in most any version) should resemble something like this...

There are other versions of long fist so this is by no means "the" definition, but it is a good representation.

Notice how she moves, everything extends, everything finishes, her whole body is involved in generating power & then expressing it. Not rushed, not shortened, not feeling forced.

A yup...agreed and isn't that Yang Jwing Ming's daughter in the video you posted?

After watching the SD Long Fist video with my youngest and to quote her after watching the longfist video "he is not good is he"

Modern wushu versions

 

[Blaze Dragon]

Thank you all for sharing and taking the time to explain, to get back to Doomx2001 original question, (though I think we are still on topic). perhaps it's far to say, though you'll be exposed to forms from different styles they will have a distinct SD influence on them, so the style is unique in and of it's self. If you wanted to really know one style perhaps ask some of these guys on here where you can find a school that just teaches the one style your interested in, be it Xingyiquan or longfist (for recent examples). oh better yet may think of it like SD is like getting an associates or bachelors degree in multiple arts vs a PhD in one maybe.

From my 4 years with SD I'm very happen, even if all the forms are not practiced as you'll see them in there respective style (I only have videos to compare and they do look different). I still enjoy the mix of things I'm learning, on a more personal note to my school, I will say I have full faith in my sifu, I believe what he tells me and greatly enjoy learning from him. Even if there was a school that was purely one style in my area, which there is not (being as I love Chinese martial arts) I wouldn't leave my instructor. Even with the understanding from the posts here. That by jumping from crane, to tiger, to pakua, to tai chi, to hsing-i that I may very well not get the strong core to do one art, as someone who sticks with only that style, I do enjoy mixing it up like that and at least for what I'm looking for from martial arts it's what I want


xue shang and clfsean, does that seem fair to say?

 

[clfsean]

Thank you all for sharing and taking the time to explain, to get back to Doomx2001 original question, (though I think we are still on topic). perhaps it's far to say, though you'll be exposed to forms from different styles they will have a distinct SD influence on them, so the style is unique in and of it's self. If you wanted to really know one style perhaps ask some of these guys on here where you can find a school that just teaches the one style your interested in, be it Xingyiquan or longfist (for recent examples). oh better yet may think of it like SD is like getting an associates or bachelors degree in multiple arts vs a PhD in one maybe.

From my 4 years with SD I'm very happen, even if all the forms are not practiced as you'll see them in there respective style (I only have videos to compare and they do look different). I still enjoy the mix of things I'm learning, on a more personal note to my school, I will say I have full faith in my sifu, I believe what he tells me and greatly enjoy learning from him. Even if there was a school that was purely one style in my area, which there is not (being as I love Chinese martial arts) I wouldn't leave my instructor. Even with the understanding from the posts here. That by jumping from crane, to tiger, to pakua, to tai chi, to hsing-i that I may very well not get the strong core to do one art, as someone who sticks with only that style, I do enjoy mixing it up like that and at least for what I'm looking for from martial arts it's what I want


xue shang and clfsean, does that seem fair to say?

Yeah you can say that, but please understand when you hear it (and you will I'm afraid) a certain amount of derision & even disdain when talking to people in general. We tend to be very protective & the like about what we do. When somebody comes along & "steals" for lack for a better fitting word material you work hard to earn, it can chap & chaffe pretty quick.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I fully agree with clfsean post and I would like to add that with 900 forms I would not say you are getting a bachelor’s degree in multiple arts, you simply cannot get that much from anyone or any organizatoin that claims to teach so many forms. I might go with you are getting an overview or a sampling. If you are looking at it as a bachelors, masters, PhD then I would go with Adam Hsu’s view. He feels Long fist (Changquan) is the basic style of most Chinese martial arts styles and that would be the Bachelor’s and the masters and PhD would be styles that come off of that in his view.

I mean no disrespect but based on the few clips I ahve seen of SD's Xingyiquan they have no clue as to what real Xingyiquan is and I have not been all that impressed with anything else I ahve seen from then either.

But the reality is that if you like what you are doing and you are happy there than what we think here really does not matter much.... enjoy the training

 

[Blaze Dragon]

Yeah you can say that, but please understand when you hear it (and you will I'm afraid) a certain amount of derision & even disdain when talking to people in general. We tend to be very protective & the like about what we do. When somebody comes along & "steals" for lack for a better fitting word material you work hard to earn, it can chap & chaffe pretty quick.

Hey that I can fully understand. I just appreciate you guys hearing me out. Granted I've only been with it for 4 years so any of the other black belts would be a better resource, but still I appreciate the courtesy and conversation

Oh and I was looking up on my schools sight and it has a part on long fist, it says
Hua Temple (

Hua Si)

Chang Ch'uan

Chang Quan

Long Fist

I don't know if that means anything as I've not learned it yet, I don't know if that makes any difference as to the differences seen in the video of SD vs the other one you posted.

 

[Blaze Dragon]

I fully agree with clfsean post and I would like to add that with 900 forms I would not say you are getting a bachelor’s degree in multiple arts, you simply cannot get that much from anyone or any organizatoin that claims to teach so many forms. I might go with you are getting an overview or a sampling. If you are looking at it as a bachelors, masters, PhD then I would go with Adam Hsu’s view. He feels Long fist (Changquan) is the basic style of most Chinese martial arts styles and that would be the Bachelor’s and the masters and PhD would be styles that come off of that in his view.

I mean no disrespect but based on the few clips I ahve seen of SD's Xingyiquan they have no clue as to what real Xingyiquan is and I have not been all that impressed with anything else I ahve seen from then either.

But the reality is that if you like what you are doing and you are happy there than what we think here really does not matter much.... enjoy the training

That makes sense, but like I was saying to clfsean I appreciate the courteous way the conversation went I got some good perspective and understanding of how some may view SD outside the system. I agree with what you say about the reality of if I am happy that's what counts but I still enjoy talking about. I know I'm not the best resources but maybe that's good too, to get a perspective of someone new to SD but whos been with martial arts 18 years now. I've always liked mixing the things I've learned from the different styles I've looked at, so at least with SD I dont' have to switch schools lol but still get a good mix.

though with the 900 forms please understand that most will never even see all 900. Just to hit black belt it's only 25 I think, I counted it once. and to hit 5th I want to say it's around 100 forms or more. Many are optional in seminars outside of the ranking material and I'm sure even more is high level stuff when you get above 5th degree that I've not even heard of. I wouldn't mind seeing your opinion of some of the other schools Xingyi, though I am curious though is it the movements that you find incorrect or the execution?

Also I mentioned I would check on the source of our Hsing-I on our sight I saw this, once again I'm not sure what this means as far as Xingyiquan or if it makes a difference on style but
Sun Style Hsing-I 孫氏形意

It's posted on a public page and thought it's worth looking at it was on a section for the temples and the associated fighting style, so I'm not sure if that means this is where SD gets them from or if this is where the style originated. Either way thought I'd share

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hey that I can fully understand. I just appreciate you guys hearing me out. Granted I've only been with it for 4 years so any of the other black belts would be a better resource, but still I appreciate the courtesy and conversation

Oh and I was looking up on my schools sight and it has a part on long fist, it says
Hua Temple (

Hua Si)

Chang Ch'uan

Chang Quan

Long Fist

I don't know if that means anything as I've not learned it yet, I don't know if that makes any difference as to the differences seen in the video of SD vs the other one you posted.

Your link for Hua temple is to Hua Shan or flower mountain in Shaanxi and I doubt the Changquan came from there since it was historically Taoist and they are not known for their Chanquan. Although it is possible there was a guy there who knew Changquan but I doubt he lived in a temple

 

[Blaze Dragon]

Your link for Hua temple is to Hua Shan or flower mountain in Shaanxi and I doubt the Changquan came from there since it was historically Taoist and they are not known for their Chanquan. Although it is possible there was a guy there who knew Changquan but I doubt he lived in a temple

I can't answer details, just going off the sight. However perhaps someone learned it and brought it there? a student perhaps, either way thats the only info I could find about SD's long fist. I'm sure some of the black belts who have the records know more detail. Since I don't know figured I'd at least throw it into conversation and compare notes so to speak.

 

[clfsean]

Hey that I can fully understand. I just appreciate you guys hearing me out. Granted I've only been with it for 4 years so any of the other black belts would be a better resource, but still I appreciate the courtesy and conversation

Oh and I was looking up on my schools sight and it has a part on long fist, it says
Hua Temple (

Hua Si)

Chang Ch'uan

Chang Quan

Long Fist

I don't know if that means anything as I've not learned it yet, I don't know if that makes any difference as to the differences seen in the video of SD vs the other one you posted.

Yeah... See that's what I mean with SD "borrowing" stuff & missing out the basics.

Hua Quan... Not Hua Mountain anything. It's from Shandong, a cousin or sister to Zha Quan. Go Google ... Wang Zi Peng, Cai Long Yan, Peter Kwok & on YouTube, Air Force Allie

I think you will find the hunt for info & what back Long Yan did.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD. Please excuse typos & brevity of posts.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yeah... See that's what I mean with SD "borrowing" stuff & missing out the basics.

Hua Quan...

Not to be confused with huā quán xìu tǔi

 

[clfsean]

Not to be confused with huā quán xìu tǔi

Correct... Not that...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD. Please excuse typos & brevity of posts.

 

[Flying Crane]

Thank you all for sharing and taking the time to explain, to get back to Doomx2001 original question, (though I think we are still on topic). perhaps it's far to say, though you'll be exposed to forms from different styles they will have a distinct SD influence on them, so the style is unique in and of it's self.

Here's the thing. It's not the forms that are important, but rather that every movement within the form, is done correctly. The choreography of the form as a whole doesn't matter. Every individual technique within the form is what matters, and to do them correctly means you must understand the foundation upon which the particular system, and by extension the forms from that system, are built. Those techniques are built to work upon a certain kind of foundation, and they do not work well on the wrong foundation. So mixing different styles ends up putting techniques on the wrong foundation, and they don't work so well anymore. But this is subtle stuff that isn't often visibly obvious. On the surface, it can look the same. But underneath there's a lot lacking. It's a bit like taking a lambourghini and putting a lawnmower engine under the hood. It looks great sitting there in the driveway, but if you take it for a drive you know immediately that something's missing, there's none of the performance that is expected with a lambourghini. That's what happens when you practice the techniques of one system on the foundation of another system that it wasn't designed to work on.

But to be honest, this is all only superficial. The techniques are really only an expression of the foundation and the principles that the system is built upon. If you really understand the sysetem you begin to realize that the foundation and principles can be used to drive any and every technique, no matter what movement you do. The formalized techniques of the system are really just a teaching tool to help you understand how the principles work. Once you understand that then the formalized techniques don't even matter that much. But the only way you will understand this is with a good teacher who really really understands the system that he is teaching. And you will not find that in a mish-mash like Shaolin Do, where material from many systems is thrown together and mixed up as if it is all one and the same thing. When there is no room for the system to be taught and trained in it's full form, with a deep understanding, all the goods get lost. When a bunch of stuff gets mixed together, you lose it all.

If you wanted to really know one style perhaps ask some of these guys on here where you can find a school that just teaches the one style your interested in, be it Xingyiquan or longfist (for recent examples). oh better yet may think of it like SD is like getting an associates or bachelors degree in multiple arts vs a PhD in one maybe.

It really isn't even a matter of just wanting to know one system, or being "content" with one system. What one system does is, it gives you a consistent way to execute all of your techniques, no matter what that technique is. THat consistency is what makes you good, because you are always working to develop the same underlying skill, that drives everything. That means that one system is very "complete" because it is a singular method that makes everything work. But if you are scattered between several systems, then you are splitting your efforts among several methods, and that does cause physical confusion and prevents any of those method from progressing very far.

That by jumping from crane, to tiger, to pakua, to tai chi, to hsing-i that I may very well not get the strong core to do one art, as someone who sticks with only that style, I do enjoy mixing it up like that and at least for what I'm looking for from martial arts it's what I want

It sounds to me like you are looking at things in terms of a collection: a collection of Crane techniques, a collection of Tiger techniques, a collection of Bagua techniques, etc. But that's not the right way to look at it, and it indicates a shallow depth of understanding. As I was saying above, what is important is understanding the foundation and method that drives all the techniques, that one style uses, and not mixing up different methodologies. Collecting the techniques of many systems just creates clutter. Understanding the principles that drive a well-designed method, makes for a lean, mean, fighting method without the clutter of memorizing and collecting every technique in existance.

 

[rickster]

Here's the thing. It's not the forms that are important, but rather that every movement within the form, is done correctly. The choreography of the form as a whole doesn't matter. Every individual technique within the form is what matters, and to do them correctly means you must understand the foundation upon which the particular system, and by extension the forms from that system, are built. Those techniques are built to work upon a certain kind of foundation, and they do not work well on the wrong foundation. So mixing different styles ends up putting techniques on the wrong foundation, and they don't work so well anymore. But this is subtle stuff that isn't often visibly obvious. On the surface, it can look the same. But underneath there's a lot lacking. It's a bit like taking a lambourghini and putting a lawnmower engine under the hood. It looks great sitting there in the driveway, but if you take it for a drive you know immediately that something's missing, there's none of the performance that is expected with a lambourghini. That's what happens when you practice the techniques of one system on the foundation of another system that it wasn't designed to work on.
.

In the case of SD "more" seems to equate "better"

I cant begin to list many schools that I had visited that did not have a lot of forms, but had a lot of moves in the forms they already had.

 

[Flying Crane]

In the case of SD "more" seems to equate "better"

I cant begin to list many schools that I had visited that did not have a lot of forms, but had a lot of moves in the forms they already had.

yeah, I spent a bit of time with SD back in the very early 1990s. I am familiar with what is in the curriculum and the very long lists of forms and systems that they want to claim ownership of. I also have a Tracy kenpo background which has done some of the same thing, tho in a different way and perhaps not to the same level. But I am firmly of the opinion that "more is better" is not the best approach to training and learning a martial art, especially when that "more" is just a hodge-podge thrown together without a consistant methodology driving it all.

 

[WC_lun]

Flying Crane, awsome post above. Too many people want to collect. Always looking for more, more, MORE! What is the point if you do not really understand even the first thing in your collection? This is certainly not relegated to martial arts only.

For many years I taught at a school that used various animal styles. The entire system had a base that connected the animals together. Very often I would have students tell me that they wanted to be promoted so they could train in this animal or that weapon. The funny thing to me was, if the student concentrated on the first few forms they would have everything that particular system had to offer. Instead there was always the next thing. Now I see many advanced students from that school that have many forms that they can perform flawlessly, yet they cannot bridge the forms to thier fighting, for the very reasons you bring up in your post.

 

[Flying Crane]

Flying Crane, awsome post above. Too many people want to collect. Always looking for more, more, MORE! What is the point if you do not really understand even the first thing in your collection? This is certainly not relegated to martial arts only.

For many years I taught at a school that used various animal styles. The entire system had a base that connected the animals together. Very often I would have students tell me that they wanted to be promoted so they could train in this animal or that weapon. The funny thing to me was, if the student concentrated on the first few forms they would have everything that particular system had to offer. Instead there was always the next thing. Now I see many advanced students from that school that have many forms that they can perform flawlessly, yet they cannot bridge the forms to thier fighting, for the very reasons you bring up in your post.

It's a funny thing. People see someone doing something different, and they decide, "I want to learn that, it MUST be valuable because THOSE people are doing it. I don't have it and if I learn it then it MUST make me better". This is a flawed way of looking at it. The question that people don't seem to ask themselves is, "Is there a good reason to have THAT thing, will it actually improve what I am doing? Is there actually a reason why I SHOULD NOT have that stuff? Might that stuff actually get in the way of my development? Is it compatible, or is it incompatible with the method that I train?"

that is what people never consider and never ask themselves. They just decide, if there is more out there then I want it, no matter what.