Shadow Boxing vs Kata fallacy argument.

[Tony Dismukes]

There are different skill levels of those that shadowbox,

And I'm pretty sure there are different levels of those that practice Kata.

Pshaw, that's only 100x better than my shadowboxing. 200x tops. Give me another 50 years of practice and I should be able to look that good.

 

[Flying Crane]

Pshaw, that's only 100x better than my shadowboxing. 200x tops. Give me another 50 years of practice and I should be able to look that good.

You’ll be able to move that well when you are deep into your 90s?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You’ll be able to move that well when you are deep into your 90s?

Actually in 50 years I'll be 106. I just didn't want isshinryuronin to think I was being an impatient Westerner trying to rush things.

 

[Flying Crane]

Here is an in depth article on Shu-Ha-Ri: Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin kai

Its a little lengthy, but goes into detail about each stage, and the process it takes to go through each stage.



I believe the Shu-Ha-Ri process is more linear, though there is some back and forth. But, the three phases are basic phases of learning. When you learned to tie your shoe, you were taught to hold this string in this hand, and the that string in that hand. There was discussion about exactly where each string went, and how to use your fingers to manipulate it. After a while, you just tied your shoes... you were doing the exact same thing, only now you didn't think about it. Later, you started double knotting it, so that they would not come undone, or it became cool to use two different colored laces together, or you wanted to change the way they look, so you used different knots or your lace broke, and you had to improvise...

The Japanese system identifies these stages, and lays them out. But, if you learn anything, you probably went through this same sequence, whether you named the stages, or even recognized that there were stages.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about what kata is. I think a lot of the misunderstanding comes from people not realizing that it is only the first step. When people think kata is the sum total, they start using it to limit what they can do. Instead it is a tool that should be used to expand what they can do.

The traditional Shu-Ha-Ri method may not be for everyone. Other methods of learning may work better for different people. Not everyone may have the patience required to do the traditional Shu-Ha-Ri method. However, most methods (all of the ones I am aware of) include those three stages, though the arrangement may be different. Every time I have gone to a BJJ class, they demonstrate a technique. As students, we do the basic drill, step by step exactly as shown. Then we get shown little variations and we drill those. Then resistance is added and we do the proscribed technique despite the resistance. Then we roll. Most instructors encourage the students to try applying the technique they just drilled while rolling. While this may not be as formal as Shu-Ha-Ri... those 3 stages were certainly present.

Interesting article by Takamatsu Sensei. As a practitioner of a Chinese method, we place a heavy focus on our forms and we have never in my experience talked specifically about a concept akin to Shu-Ha-Ri, certainly never by name at any rate. But it is absolutely consistent with my understanding of how one would progress in their development through the kind of training that we do. Perhaps the concept is less clearly defined in the Chinese methods, and that may be a cultural thing. But it is in line with what has been my own thinking on the subject for a long time.

Particularly interesting to me is the description of Ri, where it is said that one discards the kata. I have said for a long time that our forms are a tool to teach us certain skills, and once those skills have been well learned, one could discard the forms as they have served their purpose. And yet the continued practice of forms is always valuable for the constant honing that must be done. That seems consistent with what had been stated about Ri.

 

[Buka]

Pshaw, that's only 100x better than my shadowboxing. 200x tops. Give me another 50 years of practice and I should be able to look that good.

I hear ya, brother. And that's one of his simpler shadowboxing drills.

Here, this will make you feel even worse.....

And it just goes on and on...but a fun guy to watch and study.

 

[Buka]

I just bought the dvd. Thanks, man.

Well so much for that. The seller contacted me, nice guy, told me he had only one copy which sold weeks ago......but Amazon keeps trying to sell it again no matter how many times he tells them.

I'll try a different seller. But, man, Amazon got too damn big for itself. It screws up a lot.

 

[wab25]

Interesting article by Takamatsu Sensei. As a practitioner of a Chinese method, we place a heavy focus on our forms and we have never in my experience talked specifically about a concept akin to Shu-Ha-Ri, certainly never by name at any rate. But it is absolutely consistent with my understanding of how one would progress in their development through the kind of training that we do. Perhaps the concept is less clearly defined in the Chinese methods, and that may be a cultural thing. But it is in line with what has been my own thinking on the subject for a long time.

Particularly interesting to me is the description of Ri, where it is said that one discards the kata. I have said for a long time that our forms are a tool to teach us certain skills, and once those skills have been well learned, one could discard the forms as they have served their purpose. And yet the continued practice of forms is always valuable for the constant honing that must be done. That seems consistent with what had been stated about Ri.

This is great information. I do not have experience with Chinese Martial Arts or the particulars about their methods of training. However, I have suspected that their forms could be used in a similar fashion. From what you say, it sounds like my suspicions were more right than wrong.

 

[wab25]

As I responded to Jerry's post, your ending example of going thru the 3 stages by learning a technique over the course of a single or several classes, is not true Shu Ha Ri, but a pale, abbreviated sketch that hints at its true nature - but I understand your comparison. I know you did not equate the two as being the same (please take no offense) - Just wanted to again stress the time factor required for the true evolution from one stage to the next. You are correct when you refer to the "patience required" to go thru the process and reap the benefits.

No offense taken. You are correct that the example was not true Shu-Ha-Ri in the formal sense. Hopefully, the idea I was getting across is that the 3 stages are not unique to Japanese or kata type arts. They are 3 stages of learning that are universal. The Japanese have formalized those 3 stages into Shu-Ha-Ri, as well as formalizing the process of going through the stages and the transitions.

You bring up time as a big feature of Shu-Ha-Ri. In my opinion (being a westerner learning this stuff as best as I can...), the most important piece that the Shu-Ha-Ri method brings is defining the responsibilities of the teacher. When the students are at different points, the role of the teacher is different. At the beginning, the teacher ensures exact correctness in the kata. Then the teacher ensures that deviations are correct, saying the same things and expressing the same ideas. Then finally, helping the student to be free of the kata. Always through this process, the teacher must understand the goal and the path, so as not to inhibit the student. The interactions of the teacher with the student are very important and lead to either growth or stagnation...

 

[Flying Crane]

This is great information. I do not have experience with Chinese Martial Arts or the particulars about their methods of training. However, I have suspected that their forms could be used in a similar fashion. From what you say, it sounds like my suspicions were more right than wrong.

I cannot speak for every school of course. But for me, yes this is how I understand it. It actually seems pretty intuitive, to be honest. I find myself puzzled when people have a hard time grasping this concept.

I think it is difficult or impossible to define the exact boundaries of the stages. It is just something you keep at, it takes a long time, something to constantly engage in throughout your lifetime.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Shadow boxing should have application to someones response though.

Yep.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Shadow boxing (for striking art) and solo drill (for wrestling art) are the same thing.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well so much for that. The seller contacted me, nice guy, told me he had only one copy which sold weeks ago......but Amazon keeps trying to sell it again no matter how many times he tells them.

I'll try a different seller. But, man, Amazon got too damn big for itself. It screws up a lot.

We watched it on On Demand on Xfinity. Got something like that?

 

[isshinryuronin]

No offense taken. You are correct that the example was not true Shu-Ha-Ri in the formal sense. Hopefully, the idea I was getting across is that the 3 stages are not unique to Japanese or kata type arts. They are 3 stages of learning that are universal. The Japanese have formalized those 3 stages into Shu-Ha-Ri, as well as formalizing the process of going through the stages and the transitions.

You bring up time as a big feature of Shu-Ha-Ri. In my opinion (being a westerner learning this stuff as best as I can...), the most important piece that the Shu-Ha-Ri method brings is defining the responsibilities of the teacher. When the students are at different points, the role of the teacher is different. At the beginning, the teacher ensures exact correctness in the kata. Then the teacher ensures that deviations are correct, saying the same things and expressing the same ideas. Then finally, helping the student to be free of the kata. Always through this process, the teacher must understand the goal and the path, so as not to inhibit the student. The interactions of the teacher with the student are very important and lead to either growth or stagnation...

I agree that Shu Ha Ri depends on a close relationship between teacher and student - a relationship that's hard to forge in these modern days of large classes and impersonal instruction. The word "intimate" comes to mind regarding the teacher's sensitivity and understanding of the student's abilities and capabilities in order to guide him into the higher levels.

I did not intend to overstate time as a dominant feature (I agree the teacher is the main guiding element) but it is, I think, the feature that's most underestimated by the lay practitioner. That is the only reason I stressed it. Just kind of laying out the dimensions of the playing field.

And I agree that Shu Ha Ri can be applied to many things in life, but kudos to the Japanese for laying it out as a philosophical system of learning.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree that Shu Ha Ri depends on a close relationship between teacher and student - a relationship that's hard to forge in these modern days of large classes and impersonal instruction. The word "intimate" comes to mind regarding the teacher's sensitivity and understanding of the student's abilities and capabilities in order to guide him into the higher levels.

I did not intend to overstate time as a dominant feature (I agree the teacher is the main guiding element) but it is, I think, the feature that's most underestimated by the lay practitioner. That is the only reason I stressed it. Just kind of laying out the dimensions of the playing field.

And I agree that Shu Ha Ri can be applied to many things in life, but kudos to the Japanese for laying it out as a philosophical system of learning.

I think schedule is as much an impediment to the approach as larger classes. Someone training twice a week for 60-90 minutes, I don't think the approach works as well. This was part of my earlier point about folks not necessarily being less patient. MA is available to more people than it once was, and most of those folks simply don't have it as a priority they'll commit 20+ hours a week to for years on end, so an approach that is best suited to that time commitment won't work well for them.

 

[Buka]

We watched it on On Demand on Xfinity. Got something like that?

I do not, no. But thanks.

I'm going back online and see if I can get a used copy from another seller, though.

 

[drop bear]

Yep.

So when you say

"It’s a pre-set séquence, and you can’t know what will come next in a real fight. “ That is true of shadow boxing and pretty much all drills, too."

It is not true of shadow boxing.
.
And this.

"you improv in shadow boxing, you're practicing a sequence that may not have application to someone's response"

Is not true of what you should be doing in shadow boxing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is not true of what you should be doing in shadow boxing.

Is groin kick followed by a face punch considered as shadow boxing by your definition?

 

[drop bear]

Is groin kick followed by a face punch considered as shadow boxing by your definition?

Not really. Depends what context.

If someone said they were doing shadow boxing and then kicked me in the groin I would be pretty upset.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not really. Depends what context.

If someone said they were doing shadow boxing and then kicked me in the groin I would be pretty upset.

So by your definition,

shadow boxing = punches?

Why do you want to limit the term only on punch, but not on kick, lock, or throw?

If a boxer who also trains TKD, what's wrong for him to integrate his punches and kicks?

 

[Buka]

We always used shadow boxing as part of the warm up for training. With music on, usually picked by the students. We threw as many kicks as punches. It was fun.