Self Defense for Weapons

[stonewall1450]

Well I just joined the forum today, and then I went to work. I had a discussion with a co-worker who did some martial arts when he was younger. He talked about how he met a man that was capable of kicking the gun out of someones hand before they squeezed the trigger. So I got to thinking, is there an art that tries to teach you this?

My reason for this question is: this is almost totally worthless. Now I understand that if you get into a very close quarters it would be useful to remove a weapon, but honestly how many times out of 10 are you going to get shot Trying. I guess this is a warning of sorts since some guy in my area got shot 25 times recently trying to do this to a cop(uncle is a cop and the story is kinda funny because the gun was a paintball gun loaded with pepper spray balls. Guy told the cops to keep the spaceman gun away from him). The warning is this: if the guy is farther than 5 feet anything you do is almost useless. I wont miss at that range(granted i am expierenced with shooting[though hunting situations] rapidly and accuratley). Is there any art that actually teaches practical engagement of people with guns?

 

[Zeal]

To put it bluntly, no. There is no martial art (that's taken seriously) that would devote all training to removing a weapon. That would lead students to lose interest. Not to mention the amount of time that it would take. Noone is ready for every situation. Martial arts in general are designed to teach you how not to fight. This means two things:

1. To not engage into physical combat using words, like a negotiator of sorts

2. Teach you how to not get your butt handed to you

Hope this helps you out.

 

[tellner]

Well I just joined the forum today, and then I went to work. I had a discussion with a co-worker who did some martial arts when he was younger. He talked about how he met a man that was capable of kicking the gun out of someones hand before they squeezed the trigger. So I got to thinking, is there an art that tries to teach you this?

I wouldn't say that nobody has ever done that. But I'd also have to say that it's a really low-percentage technique to try in an actual fight. There are other approaches that have a much better chance of working.

One of the things to keep in mind is that you're in a situation with a person who is holding a gun. If you are going to attack rather than run, comply, reason or something else you have to keep both parts of that equation in mind. The gun is only dangerous to you if the little hole at the end is pointed directly at you and the person holding it pulls the trigger at that point. Effective gun defense attacks both parts of the problem. Specifics are left as an exercise for you and your teacher.

There are dedicated firearms retention and disarming courses. Police departments with decent training budgets put a fair amount of effort into them. Military and Military/Police combatives programs such as Systema, Ross and Krav Maga teach quite a bit of this with more extensive programs for those with specialized occupational needs.

My reason for this question is: this is almost totally worthless. Now I understand that if you get into a very close quarters it would be useful to remove a weapon, but honestly how many times out of 10 are you going to get shot Trying.

You'd be surprised. Look up the Tueller Drill and Reactionary Gap. If you're feeling adventurous consider OODA Loops.

if the guy is farther than 5 feet anything you do is almost useless. I wont miss at that range(granted i am expierenced with shooting[though hunting situations] rapidly and accuratley). Is there any art that actually teaches practical engagement of people with guns?

As I said, check out Krav Maga, Ross, Systema, the various WWII Fairbairn-based combatives programs and the firearms retention and disarming courses at places like Thunder Ranch, FAS and LFI. Each has its own approaches with its own strengths and weaknesses.

To put it bluntly, no. There is no martial art (that's taken seriously) that would devote all training to removing a weapon. That would lead students to lose interest. Not to mention the amount of time that it would take. Noone is ready for every situation.

There are entire martial arts whose focus is the use of a yard-long stick against a man armed with a sword. There are weapons whose sole purpose is to disarm swordsmen by tangling up their sleeves and arms.

Martial arts in general are designed to teach you how not to fight. This means two things:

To put it bluntly, garbage, twaddle and horsefeathers. Post-WWII fetishes for making the martial arts seem earthy-crunchy and pacifistic notwithstanding they've always been about fighting. There might be other benefits. But those have always been secondary. It's always been about doing unto others without letting them do unto you.

 

[MJS]

Well I just joined the forum today, and then I went to work. I had a discussion with a co-worker who did some martial arts when he was younger. He talked about how he met a man that was capable of kicking the gun out of someones hand before they squeezed the trigger. So I got to thinking, is there an art that tries to teach you this?

My reason for this question is: this is almost totally worthless. Now I understand that if you get into a very close quarters it would be useful to remove a weapon, but honestly how many times out of 10 are you going to get shot Trying. I guess this is a warning of sorts since some guy in my area got shot 25 times recently trying to do this to a cop(uncle is a cop and the story is kinda funny because the gun was a paintball gun loaded with pepper spray balls. Guy told the cops to keep the spaceman gun away from him). The warning is this: if the guy is farther than 5 feet anything you do is almost useless. I wont miss at that range(granted i am expierenced with shooting[though hunting situations] rapidly and accuratley). Is there any art that actually teaches practical engagement of people with guns?

Anyone who says that they can kick a gun or knife out of your hand should be avoided, because they're living in a fantasy land, and whatever it is they're teaching, will most likely get the student killed!

There are many arts out there such as Krav Maga, and the Filipino arts, that will teach effective weapon disarming.

Of course, as you said, if the person is not within arms reach, then nothing is going to work.

 

[terryl965]

Anyone who says that they can kick a gun or knife out of your hand should be avoided, because they're living in a fantasy land, and whatever it is they're teaching, will most likely get the student killed!

There are many arts out there such as Krav Maga, and the Filipino arts, that will teach effective weapon disarming.

Of course, as you said, if the person is not within arms reach, then nothing is going to work.

Amen Brotherman

 

[Grenadier]

Well I just joined the forum today, and then I went to work. I had a discussion with a co-worker who did some martial arts when he was younger. He talked about how he met a man that was capable of kicking the gun out of someones hand before they squeezed he trigger.

He knew Bruce Lee?

Seriously, though, if someone were that fast, they would probably be seen in the human population at a rate of 1 out of 20 million.

So I got to thinking, is there an art that tries to teach you this?

It's going to depend on who is teaching the art. Back when I took Tae Kwon Do, we used crescent kicks to tear down someone's guard. Some of the instructors were claiming that you could use this to kick a weapon out of someone's hand. When given the opportunity to kick a toy plastic pistol (I think someone brought one of those Buck Rogers' toy guns) from someone's hand before they could squeeze the trigger, unfortunately, the kicker always ended up having that beam of light focussed on his chest long before he got the kick up there.

My reason for this question is: this is almost totally worthless. Now I understand that if you get into a very close quarters it would be useful to remove a weapon, but honestly how many times out of 10 are you going to get shot Trying.

There are many people who conduct seminars on gun disarmament, knife disarmament, etc., and if anything, I encourage people to at least give them a try. Many of the drills are also valid for working against empty hands as well, and the training certainly can't hurt. You can get a pretty good insight into the limitations on which ways various joints can (and can't) bend.

Just don't expect it to be a panacea for stopping bad guys with guns.

Don't get me wrong; it's better to have some knowledge about these matters. This way, if you are are attacked in such a manner, at least you can do something, and increase your chances of surviving a wee bit.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I talked a little bit about this some years back on this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35050

Hope you find something in it of use.

 

[jks9199]

A comment...

Is it possible that someone successfully defended themselves against either a gun or knife by kicking the weapon out of the attacker's hand? Sure.

Is it likely? Nope. Too many things need to go just right, or you get hurt. Or dead.

The knife presents a simpler example. You must strike the hand -- not the blade! -- in such a way that the knife is knocked loose WITHOUT being cut by it and without the attacker evading your kick. Think for a moment about kicking a focus mitt... How many times, in a pleasant environment like a training hall, have you thrown a wonderful kick... and missed entirely? Now... ramp up the adrenaline, plummet the fine motor control, add in variable surfaces and footwear... Like I said -- the knife is an easier example, because all you have to do is avoid the business end of it; if you don't contact the blade, it won't cut you.

A gun's not so simple... You kick at a hand holding a gun, there's a damn good (like near certain) chance that, in a simple reflex, the gun will fire. Oops... Not good. Because I'll bet anyone trying to do this didn't consider the line of fire. A gun can reach out and touch in a way entirely different than a knife.

And that's before we even raise an issue like whether or not your clothing will let you kick high enough to do any good.

Are there effective ways to defend yourself, unarmed, against a knife or gun? Yes. There's still a good chance that you'll be hurt even with the best approaches -- but if the choice is risking getting hurt, versuses a certainty of getting dead... I'm taking my chances!

 

[stonewall1450]

That is really what I wanted to know about, if people learned how to Kick guns out of peoples hands. Honestly you would be far better off with your hands in my opinion. The thing to remeber about a gun is the direction the barrel is pointed. That is where your 1st concern lies, and when its at you you better be damn sure that you get away from that spot before you even think about tryin to evade.
The handgun is of course the scarriest, but something I am curious about is the Long Guns(rifles, assault rifles, and shotguns) and Sub Machine guns. I actually have learned a good defense against Long guns. It is a dodge one way as pushing the barrel another and forcing it up into the holders nose and then getting ahold of the but and trying to ram it into their chin with a swipe from the butt then dropping the barrel back on their head. Im sure the nose crunching would be enough, but i know this is from Krav Maga and I learned it from my uncle who was in the marines(he picked it up in a law enforcement seminar)

 

[jks9199]

That is really what I wanted to know about, if people learned how to Kick guns out of peoples hands. Honestly you would be far better off with your hands in my opinion. The thing to remeber about a gun is the direction the barrel is pointed. That is where your 1st concern lies, and when its at you you better be damn sure that you get away from that spot before you even think about tryin to evade.
The handgun is of course the scarriest, but something I am curious about is the Long Guns(rifles, assault rifles, and shotguns) and Sub Machine guns. I actually have learned a good defense against Long guns. It is a dodge one way as pushing the barrel another and forcing it up into the holders nose and then getting ahold of the but and trying to ram it into their chin with a swipe from the butt then dropping the barrel back on their head. Im sure the nose crunching would be enough, but i know this is from Krav Maga and I learned it from my uncle who was in the marines(he picked it up in a law enforcement seminar)

And... how often do you think someone with half a brain and a long gun is going to let you get inside the barrel before they shoot? The blast from a shotgun, even alongside rather than into you, is not something you ever want to experience...

ANY UNARMED DEFENSE AGAINST A FIREARM IS A TACTIC OF DESPERATION. Outside of movieland where the bad guy cooperates, they're all a long shot, and all stand a reasonable chance of getting you shot. There are, as I and other have said, some better tactics than others... Just like knife defense, there is just too much fantasy in most unarmed defenses against a gun. Wanna prove it? Buy yourself an Airsoft or similar replica that fires something fairly harmless (marking cartridges a la Simunitions FX are expensive and require special gear; paintball guns are not necessarily particularly realistic for this), and give 'em a try.

 

[stonewall1450]

And... how often do you think someone with half a brain and a long gun is going to let you get inside the barrel before they shoot? The blast from a shotgun, even alongside rather than into you, is not something you ever want to experience...quote]

Well this move was only intended to be used if the guy had his barrel within a foot of you(hostage type situation im guessing). I am fully aware of getting my ears burned(not litterally but that is what we call it if you are to far out in front of a gun and you get the shockwave). I duck hunt alot and have gotten used to it because of the tight quarters of the boat or swamps. Shotguns are also FAR worse than rifles with this as the rifle is a crack and has less area moving in the air(shotguns with the spread create the boom and rushing of more air). It really sucks when a buddy is using a ported barrel(the holes drilled in the front of the barrel that keep it cooller and reduces recoil). It makes it MUCH louder

 

[gilgsn]

He talked about how he met a man that was capable of kicking the gun out of someones hand before they squeezed the trigger. So I got to thinking, is there an art that tries to teach you this?

I hope not... Although it could be THE thing to do in a specific situation, but that's one out of a million.. Systema, because of it's military affiliations, does teach gun disarms. As you say, if the opponent is not very close, forget it.. There are however techniques and applied principles that work well when the gun is on or very close to the body. I would say, practice with a airsoft gun, and ask your partner to shoot you if you mess-up. It hurts*, so you will get better fast! Just wear a thick shirt or two, and safety glasses.. In the end, you just increase your odds.. You still will most likely end-up dead..

Gil.

* I've never been shot with Airsofts, only paintballs, so I don't know much about safety precautions when aiming at people (I'm sure you're not supposed to do it close)... Paintballs will break the skin at close range, and leave a wound in the middle of a big bruise (don't ask me how I know..).

 

[KenpoTex]

Not much too add that hasn't been said already.

I have encountered people who were taught kicking the gun away as a defense (a couple of TKD people and someone who studied some style of Kung-fu). I personally think this method is such a low-percentage move that there is really no point in even messing with it. Even if you were fast enought to knock their hand away before they shot you, you'd still have to gain control of the weapon somehow...Anyone who teaches this as a primary defense needs to be monkey-stomped.

I would say, practice with a airsoft gun, and ask your partner to shoot you if you mess-up. It hurts*, so you will get better fast! Just wear a thick shirt or two, and safety glasses.. In the end, you just increase your odds.. You still will most likely end-up dead..

Gil.

* I've never been shot with Airsofts, only paintballs, so I don't know much about safety precautions when aiming at people (I'm sure you're not supposed to do it close)... Paintballs will break the skin at close range, and leave a wound in the middle of a big bruise (don't ask me how I know..).

I routinely have my students perform gun disarms against a training-partner armed with an airsoft pistol. The usual instructions I give to the "bad guy" are to shoot as soon as he perceives any movement from the "defender." This actually makes it much tougher for the defender since, in reality, the bad guy probably won't be expecting you to attack. He's probably going to be thinking about the money in your wallet, or what you just said to him, or whatever.
Doing this will definately show you which tecniques will work and which ones are best forgotten (most of them). I've found that the Combatives type techniques (WWII, Krav Maga, Kelly McCann, etc.) are more consistently effective than the techniques found in some of the "traditional" systems (TKD, Kenpo, etc.).

 

[GradualProgression]

I have been shot with a paintball on bare skin at about 6 feet. Nasty wound.

Overall I agree you are going to end up shot if nothing else because the gun wielder jerks when you make your move. It's a reflex.

I would always try to calmly talk my way out of it if for no other reason than to inch closer in order to make a move if it came down to it being a neccesity.

 

[arnisador]

Kicking is not the ideal option in such a case...but then, one is already at a huge disadvantage.

 

[SamT]

ANY UNARMED DEFENSE AGAINST A FIREARM IS A TACTIC OF DESPERATION. Outside of movieland where the bad guy cooperates, they're all a long shot, and all stand a reasonable chance of getting you shot. There are, as I and other have said, some better tactics than others... Just like knife defense, there is just too much fantasy in most unarmed defenses against a gun. Wanna prove it? Buy yourself an Airsoft or similar replica that fires something fairly harmless (marking cartridges a la Simunitions FX are expensive and require special gear; paintball guns are not necessarily particularly realistic for this), and give 'em a try.

Really? Because self defense taught to ATKI and probably WTSDA black belts is focused on guns. One of the most basic ones is when someone's holding a gun to your back, to turn and strike. Most people simply can't react fast enough to the turn to shoot you before you're parallel with the gun, and from there, a strike can be made to the neck, or a pressure point in that area taken advantage of. Other moves deal with pointing the gun the other way or at the aggressor. Not only that, but most people only use guns as an intimidation factor. They draw attention, and are LOUD. Your average Joe doesn't have special sub-sonic ammunition and a barrel silencer for his Glock.

Shotguns and long guns are even easier. There's more barrel to take advantage of. Shotguns in videogames are nowhere near realistic, the spread pattern isn't going to hit you if you're a foot diagonal from the barrel.

 

[jks9199]

Really? Because self defense taught to ATKI and probably WTSDA black belts is focused on guns. One of the most basic ones is when someone's holding a gun to your back, to turn and strike. Most people simply can't react fast enough to the turn to shoot you before you're parallel with the gun, and from there, a strike can be made to the neck, or a pressure point in that area taken advantage of. Other moves deal with pointing the gun the other way or at the aggressor. Not only that, but most people only use guns as an intimidation factor. They draw attention, and are LOUD. Your average Joe doesn't have special sub-sonic ammunition and a barrel silencer for his Glock.

Shotguns and long guns are even easier. There's more barrel to take advantage of. Shotguns in videogames are nowhere near realistic, the spread pattern isn't going to hit you if you're a foot diagonal from the barrel.

You've got some dangerous misconceptions...

I've learned several versions of that gun disarm. All can work, if everything goes right. (Note that I did not say NO disarms work, nor that you shouldn't try or train them.) All can also very easily get you shot.

And I sure as hell wouldn't count on someone holding a gun on me only being out to intimidate me. That's a once in a lifetime bet... because if you're wrong, you're dead. Or at least shot. If someone presents any weapon to you in an assault -- assume they are ready and willing to use it. Any other approach invites disaster. Considering that in 2006, there were nearly 15,000 homicides, and the vast majority of them (more than 10,000) involved a firearm (See here) that seems like a bit of a losing bet. (I'm not going to parse through for assaults and attempts, nor am I going to check the Crime Victimization Survey to see about assault or attempts.)

Oh... and regarding shotguns. The shot pattern may not hit you... but you'd be more than a little amazed just how much force that blast still has, even if you're not right in front of it.

Again -- I have never said that you cannot defend yourself unarmed against a gunman. Speaking with some reasonable authority on the subject, however, I place UNARMED defenses against a gun, or even knife/stick defenses against a gun, in the category of things to do when you feel that you have no other choice. Give your favorites a try, as I suggested, with something that shoots a fairly harmless projectile like an Airsoft gun. I think you may consider it noteworthy that other people (quite a few with even more expertise than I have) pretty much agreed with my comments.

 

[Drac]

Buy yourself an Airsoft or similar replica that fires something fairly harmless (marking cartridges a la Simunitions FX are expensive and require special gear; paintball guns are not necessarily particularly realistic for this), and give 'em a try.

Ahhhhh, I wanted to suggest that..Go ahead and try it..Let us know how it works, or rather doesn't....

 

[SamT]

You've got some dangerous misconceptions...

I've learned several versions of that gun disarm. All can work, if everything goes right. (Note that I did not say NO disarms work, nor that you shouldn't try or train them.) All can also very easily get you shot.

And I sure as hell wouldn't count on someone holding a gun on me only being out to intimidate me. That's a once in a lifetime bet... because if you're wrong, you're dead. Or at least shot. If someone presents any weapon to you in an assault -- assume they are ready and willing to use it. Any other approach invites disaster. Considering that in 2006, there were nearly 15,000 homicides, and the vast majority of them (more than 10,000) involved a firearm (See here) that seems like a bit of a losing bet. (I'm not going to parse through for assaults and attempts, nor am I going to check the Crime Victimization Survey to see about assault or attempts.)

Oh... and regarding shotguns. The shot pattern may not hit you... but you'd be more than a little amazed just how much force that blast still has, even if you're not right in front of it.

Again -- I have never said that you cannot defend yourself unarmed against a gunman. Speaking with some reasonable authority on the subject, however, I place UNARMED defenses against a gun, or even knife/stick defenses against a gun, in the category of things to do when you feel that you have no other choice. Give your favorites a try, as I suggested, with something that shoots a fairly harmless projectile like an Airsoft gun. I think you may consider it noteworthy that other people (quite a few with even more expertise than I have) pretty much agreed with my comments.

My instructor was a body guard for 21 years, I'll trust his experiences and advice from times he's had to defend himself against a gun. Most homicides that are done with a firearm, to the best of my knowledge, are pre-planned, or are not the result of a mugging, except for in some extremely downtrodden area. But then we move back to the very first part of self defense: Avoiding a situation in the first place.

Unless your aggressor has extremely fast reflexes, unarmed gun defense can be extremely effective, if you know how to do it and have the speed. There's a reason why ATKI teaches it to 2nd Dans and up, exclusively.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Anyone who says that they can kick a gun or knife out of your hand should be avoided, because they're living in a fantasy land, and whatever it is they're teaching, will most likely get the student killed!

There are many arts out there such as Krav Maga, and the Filipino arts, that will teach effective weapon disarming.

Of course, as you said, if the person is not within arms reach, then nothing is going to work.

I agree with this Mike. I also suggest that people who wish to try this out, use a water hand gun. The reaction of the trigger to the water coming our is a lot slower than an air soft or real gun. If you get wet, then you were shot.