Self defence situations involving FMA

[Deleted member 39746]

I was thinking about this last night, but does anyone have any videos of persons who mainly practice FMA or teach it in self defence/street fighting situations?

This can be extended to Silat (not too sure if thats under FMA or not) Im highly curious how they respond in comparison to other people from other styles. And given people like to enthisize their combative focus as opposed to other styles. (at least some forms of it)

Weapons or not, i dont really care, preferably unarmed so there isn't any dispute about sharing gore pending on content. (site rules maybe)

As its stands i have seen two machete related fights on live leek. One was a non English speaking country the other was. (granted i cant assess if FMA was involved, but i doubt it in both)

anyway, if anyone can assist with this. Similar styles to FMA are welcome.

 

[skribs]

Hey, Rat. How goes your search for a martial arts class? Have you found a place to train, yet?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have used what I know in work related situations in the past and several of my students have as well. Also in IRT we have had soldiers overseas utilize the skill sets in life or death situations that ended up with them surviving to tell the tale.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I have used what I know in work related situations in the past and several of my students have as well. Also in IRT we have had soldiers overseas utilize the skill sets in life or death situations that ended up with them surviving to tell the tale.

does it in practice just look like standard kickboxing you usually see people do?

Only curious, some of the moves look semi complex and if you factor in stress etc some of the more bare bones methods might be used. Edit: At least in a ambush and when you are on your adrenaline.

 

[skribs]

does it in practice just look like standard kickboxing you usually see people do?

Only curious, some of the moves look semi complex and if you factor in stress etc some of the more bare bones methods might be used. Edit: At least in a ambush and when you are on your adrenaline.

Stress isn't as much of a factor when you've drilled what it is you're doing over 10,000 times.

And by "drilled" I mean with a partner. In class. With critique from an instructor.

 

[Anarax]

I was thinking about this last night, but does anyone have any videos of persons who mainly practice FMA or teach it in self defence/street fighting situations?

This can be extended to Silat (not too sure if thats under FMA or not) Im highly curious how they respond in comparison to other people from other styles. And given people like to enthisize their combative focus as opposed to other styles. (at least some forms of it)

Weapons or not, i dont really care, preferably unarmed so there isn't any dispute about sharing gore pending on content. (site rules maybe)

As its stands i have seen two machete related fights on live leek. One was a non English speaking country the other was. (granted i cant assess if FMA was involved, but i doubt it in both)

anyway, if anyone can assist with this. Similar styles to FMA are welcome.

Panantukan/Suntukan is Filipino dirty boxing which is the empty-handed subset of many FMA styles. It heavily influenced western boxing and looks similar. The "dirty" refers to the elbows, knees, grappling and low strikes that you don't see in sport boxing. The point is it's difficult to find a video of it used in a live street fight, but if you were to find one it would look similar to boxing. Doug explains it in the video below

 

[lklawson]

Panantukan/Suntukan is Filipino dirty boxing which is the empty-handed subset of many FMA styles. It heavily influenced western boxing and looks similar.

Heavily influenced? That is a common belief and many people have written articles about it, particularly Filipino based martial artists. However, I am not really convinced that it is true. If you look at the history of boxing, paying particular attention to the manuals with photographs, drawings, and descriptions of techniques and footwork, you see there is nothing particularly new or revolutionary about what the Filipinos were doing that would have been a shock to boxing. There are plenty of illustrations of various both-foot-forward stances, bladed stances, upright stances, crouched stances, turning, and everything else. There are also plenty of descriptions of evasive footwork, angling footwork, counterstepping, cross stepping, angle stepping, and frankly everything else. There's even a style of boxing that is very reminiscent of Scottish broadsword in some ways.

While I would never attempt to deny the fact that there were many Filipinos who went into Western boxing and performed exceptionally well, earning by grit, determination, and fortitude their right to be known as world class boxers, I am simply not convinced that the strategy, tactics, or specific techniques inherent in Filipino martial arts had any particularly strong effect, nevermind revolutionary, on western-style boxing.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[Anarax]

Heavily influenced? That is a common belief and many people have written articles about it, particularly Filipino based martial artists.

Here's an ESPN article by a non-FMA martial artist that acknowledges the influence FMA had on boxing.

While I would never attempt to deny the fact that there were many Filipinos who went into Western boxing and performed exceptionally well, earning by grit, determination, and fortitude their right to be known as world class boxers, I am simply not convinced that the strategy, tactics, or specific techniques inherent in Filipino martial arts had any particularly strong effect, nevermind revolutionary, on western-style boxing.

Filipino boxers also brought a technical dynamic with them that helped them in the ring. Gabriel Elorde was taught Escrima by his father and utilized its footwork and movements in the ring. Here are three separate non-FMA sources that accredit FMA for the Bolo punch.

Source
Source
Source

 

[lklawson]

Here's an ESPN article by a non-FMA martial artist that acknowledges the influence FMA had on boxing.


Filipino boxers also brought a technical dynamic with them that helped them in the ring. Gabriel Elorde was taught Escrima by his father and utilized its footwork and movements in the ring. Here are three separate non-FMA sources that accredit FMA for the Bolo punch.

Source
Source
Source

Like I said, I've read plenty of articles. But I've also read original manuals predating the supposed Filipino influence, view the artwork, and examined the footwork and angles.I am forced to conclude that the supposed Filipino influence really wasn't there. It's a good story, but just that.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[Anarax]

I am forced to conclude that the supposed Filipino influence really wasn't there. It's a good story, but just that.

Sports journalists, world-renowned FMA masters and the boxers themselves acknowledge the influence. The influence is there regardless if some believe it or not.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Sports journalists, world-renowned FMA masters and the boxers themselves acknowledge the influence. The influence is there regardless if some believe it or not.

That's just an appeal to authority. Professionals are wrong sometimes. It would matter more if you could either prove that fma informed boxing, or disprove that those techniques already existed in boxing.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I got the point of view that western boxing influenced FMA and FMA influenced western boxing somewhat in both cases. If someone could take anything useful and was looking at either they would take it. I believe there is some western based boxing in the Philippines anyway now days.

 

[Anarax]

That's just an appeal to authority.

Not necessarily. It's looking at it from all sides when other sources like sports commentators/journalists and boxers validate the FMA masters statements. Appeal to authority would be taking the FMA masters at their word without questioning it.

Professionals are wrong sometimes.

It's multiple professionals with diverse/overlapping areas of expertise. The commentators, teachers and even the fighters themselves acknowledge the influence. One of the posted sources quoted Ceferino Garcia on where he got the bolo punch from.

It would matter more if you could either prove that fma informed boxing, or disprove that those techniques already existed in boxing.

Citing numerous non-FMA sources from sports and boxing websites is very objective in showing FMA's influence.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Not necessarily. It's looking at it from all sides when other sources like sports commentators/journalists and boxers validate the FMA masters statements. Appeal to authority would be taking the FMA masters at their word without questioning it.


It's multiple professionals with diverse/overlapping areas of expertise. The commentators, teachers and even the fighters themselves acknowledge the influence. One of the posted sources quoted Ceferino Garcia on where he got the bolo punch from.


Citing numerous non-FMA sources from sports and boxing websites is very objective in showing FMA's influence.

The first article you cited seemed to be focusing on how boxing has impacted the philippines, not the other way around. The other three focused on the bolo punch, which is one punch/technique taken from FMA. So while you are proving that punch came from FMA, the idea that it had any other influence doesn't really seem supported by your articles. Just by your statement that 'Sports journalists, world-renowned FMA masters and the boxers themselves acknowledge the influence'. That's where the appeal to authority is coming in.

 

[Anarax]

The first article you cited seemed to be focusing on how boxing has impacted the philippines, not the other way around.

It explained the interaction between FMA and Western boxing. It also covered why the Filipino boxers fought the way they did and how/why it differed from Western boxing of that era.

The other three focused on the bolo punch, which is one punch/technique taken from FMA. So while you are proving that punch came from FMA, the idea that it had any other influence doesn't really seem supported by your articles.

Bringing a new technique to the game is a significant contribution and is just one example of how FMA influenced Western boxing. The assertion I was disapproving with those sources was FMA had no influence on boxing at all.

Just by your statement that 'Sports journalists, world-renowned FMA masters and the boxers themselves acknowledge the influence'. That's where the appeal to authority is coming in.

That line of thinking creates a paradox though. If someone possess knowledge or expertise in a certain field they're an "authority on the matter". However, if I look to various authorities(experts) on the matter and they agree on the topic at hand then I'm "appealing to authority".

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It explained the interaction between FMA and Western boxing. It also covered why the Filipino boxers fought the way they did and how/why it differed from Western boxing of that era.


Bringing a new technique to the game is a significant contribution and is just one example of how FMA influenced Western boxing. The assertion I was disapproving with those sources was FMA had no influence on boxing at all.


That line of thinking creates a paradox though. If someone possess knowledge or expertise in a certain field they're an "authority on the matter". However, if I look to various authorities(experts) on the matter and they agree on the topic at hand then I'm "appealing to authority".

My point is simply your articles only prove one technique was taken. So for that technique, there was an influence. But it doesnt show any additional influence beyond that. And again, the appeal to authority was not the articles. It was stating that there is an influence because authorities state there was an influence, but not showing what that influence is beyond the bolo punch.
That first article was along the lines of what you would need to show it, but IMO it really showed the opposite, that western boxing influenced FMA fighting.

 

[lklawson]

Sports journalists, world-renowned FMA masters and the boxers themselves acknowledge the influence. The influence is there regardless if some believe it or not.

That's nice. But they're wrong. A quick review of just a few pre-Filipino boxing sources shows it. Look at the images for Johnson's "attitude" (aka "stance") and you can see the two-foot-forward stance. Look at Donovan's boxing manual and you can see the angle steps. Those are just two examples out of a great many. Look at Mendoza's "attitude" or Billy Edwards manual which shows angle stepping. The evidence is there, plentiful, and irrefutable. It's not my fault if neither you nor the sources you reference were aware of them before now. However, now that you are aware of them, I certainly hope you will stop making the claim.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[lklawson]

My point is simply your articles only prove one technique was taken. So for that technique, there was an influence. But it doesnt show any additional influence beyond that. And again, the appeal to authority was not the articles. It was stating that there is an influence because authorities state there was an influence, but not showing what that influence is beyond the bolo punch.
That first article was along the lines of what you would need to show it, but IMO it really showed the opposite, that western boxing influenced FMA fighting.

What he is referring to as a bolo punch was commonly called a rising body blow from the rear in earlier times. Robert Fitzsimmons illustrates a bunch of these sort of body blows in his book. But he is in no way unique.

there are lots of techniques that most people now think of as not in boxing and martial arts only. The rounding blues and looping punches, the chopper, which is variously a backfist or Hammer fist, the pivot blow which is a spinning backfist, and the foul pivot blow which is an illegal spinning elbow. All of these were in boxing. ... along with trips and throws and pressure point strikes and even an occasional choke or arm lock.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[Anarax]

My point is simply your articles only prove one technique was taken. So for that technique, there was an influence.

Again, it was the assertion that FMA had no influence whatsoever that I was disproving.

But it doesnt show any additional influence beyond that. And again, the appeal to authority was not the articles. It was stating that there is an influence because authorities state there was an influence, but not showing what that influence is beyond the bolo punch. That first article was along the lines of what you would need to show it, but IMO it really showed the opposite, that western boxing influenced FMA fighting.

Again, the ESPN article showed how they interacted with one another. It clearly explained FMA influenced how the Filipino boxers fought. It also said how they had to alter their techniques because of the boxing rules.

 

[Anarax]

Look at the images for Johnson's "attitude" (aka "stance") and you can see the two-foot-forward stance. Look at Donovan's boxing manual and you can see the angle steps. Those are just two examples out of a great many. Look at Mendoza's "attitude" or Billy Edwards manual which shows angle stepping.

Do you have any source images you can share? I found the Johnsons's stance and it's the same position Doug was referring on how the US Marines fought in the ring, it further proves his case.

The evidence is there, plentiful, and irrefutable. It's not my fault if neither you nor the sources you reference were aware of them before now.

There's so much you have to ignore to believe FMA had no influence on boxing. You have the boxers themselves with FMA backgrounds saying where they got certain techniques from, yet you are completely ignoring the words from their own mouths. You have professional sports journalists with non-FMA backgrounds who acknowledge the influence as well.

You have only used boxing sources to try and prove your point. I have avoided solely using FMA sources for if they weren't corroborated by third party/non-FMA sources it would be subjective. I can show old FMA forms/illustrations that have movements you see in boxing today, but that alone wouldn't be enough to make a case.

However, now that you are aware of them, I certainly hope you will stop making the claim.

It's not a claim, it's a fact that's backed up by proof.