Seishin Mizu Ryu Tatakai Jutsu

Rabbitthekitten

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Does anyone know anything about this? Is it legit? I read a good review about it and it looks interesting to me. But I'm a newbie so I figured I'd ask here.
 

pgsmith

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It's another invented jujutsu style with a wonky pseudo-Japanese name. No idea what they profess to be or do, so I can't say whether it is "legit" or not. Have you got a link to their web site or founder's history? That could probably tell us a bit more, but I don't have time at the moment to Google them up.
 

pgsmith

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Hmmmmmm ..... interesting.
It's definitely not a Japanese art as they claim. I only have dojo Japanese, but I can tell that the words that they're using for their kanji are not quite right.
Looked at some Youtube vids of the Jitsu Foundation, and wasn't overly impressed. Not horrible mind you, just not quite what they make it out to be.

Not having any direct knowledge of them, I would guess that they are just another judo based invented art that would like to be much more Japanese than they are. There are actually quite a number of those in the U.K. They didn't look horrible to me, so I would advise going and checking them out in person. Unless you're looking for a genuine Japanese koryu, then the desire to continue practicing regularly over a prolonged amount of time is much more important than the individual art that you're learning. :)

P.S. Did some poking around, and came across this thread on e-budo where Wayne Muramoto discusses their use of Japanese definitions for their kanji. I thought it sounded funny ... Thread
 
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Rabbitthekitten

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Thanks for the info. I was reading a blog about local martial arts schools. The writer has a couple of karate black belts and won gold at a European Championship a few years ago. Basically she went to as many of the local schools and did a class and wrote a review on it. My taekwondo class had a good review and this school did too. I was just looking for information really on the art. I might go down to have a look when I get the chance.
 

Chris Parker

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This is the problem with someone having specialist knowledge in a field, and thinking it transfers across to a larger understanding... having "a couple of karate black belts" (whatever that actually refers to... I've seen it refer to dan grades in multiple forms of karate, or referring to multiple dan grades in one system, meaning that sandan, for example, is classed as "three [levels of] black belt"), or winning any championship at all really means absolutely nothing when it comes to critiquing or even recognising accurately anything from unrelated (or even somewhat related) arts.

One sadly common example is the plethora of karate instructors who seem to think that, simply because they have experience and skill in their art, it transfers across to unrelated systems and methods, such as sword. That is almost universally terrible, by the way. It also leads to quite senior members of one particular art defending systems they don't have the requisite knowledge to actually know what they're defending... which is something I've seen many times over.

Personally, I wouldn't put any stock in any outside reviews... I would, however, put more stock in people who know what they're talking about... and Wayne Muramoto, linked by Paul above, is certainly one of those. I was going to point out the same issues (most notably the "Tataki-jutsu" debacle), but, as usual, Wayne has said things far better than any other. Read his comments.
 

pgsmith

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One sadly common example is the plethora of karate instructors who seem to think that, simply because they have experience and skill in their art, it transfers across to unrelated systems and methods, such as sword.

I remember a thread on e-budo years ago of pictures found on the web of karate instructors with swords. Some of them were hilarious. :)
 
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Rabbitthekitten

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This is the problem with someone having specialist knowledge in a field, and thinking it transfers across to a larger understanding... having "a couple of karate black belts" (whatever that actually refers to... I've seen it refer to dan grades in multiple forms of karate, or referring to multiple dan grades in one system, meaning that sandan, for example, is classed as "three [levels of] black belt"), or winning any championship at all really means absolutely nothing when it comes to critiquing or even recognising accurately anything from unrelated (or even somewhat related) arts.

One sadly common example is the plethora of karate instructors who seem to think that, simply because they have experience and skill in their art, it transfers across to unrelated systems and methods, such as sword. That is almost universally terrible, by the way. It also leads to quite senior members of one particular art defending systems they don't have the requisite knowledge to actually know what they're defending... which is something I've seen many times over.

Personally, I wouldn't put any stock in any outside reviews... I would, however, put more stock in people who know what they're talking about... and Wayne Muramoto, linked by Paul above, is certainly one of those. I was going to point out the same issues (most notably the "Tataki-jutsu" debacle), but, as usual, Wayne has said things far better than any other. Read his comments.

I think the review was based on the quality of teaching rather than the art itself. I studied astrophysics at university. I'm pretty confident that if I went to a series of science classes I would be able to pick up on who knew their stuff and who was chancer, whether the class be astrophysics, microbiology, geochemistry or whatever. Maybe if it was a sufficiently different subject such as biology I'd struggle to appreciate what is generally accepted fact and what is complete nonsense. But if you have a quality teacher they're generally not going to teach rubbish.

Perhaps martial arts are different and you do get good teachers teaching bad subjects.

Now on the art itself, maybe it does have a bad name. Maybe it is Judo with a few bits from other things thrown in but does that necessarily make it bad? As someone on the link says it meets the requirements of the BJJA. Unless they are corrupt and/or incompetent perhaps judgement should be reserved until one actually see's it.

Mr Muramoto does critisise the name and argues that if they can't get the name right then they probably won't get anything else correct. I suck at ancient Greek and Latin. But I'm pretty confident that I could pass any undergraduate stellar astrophysics exam in any reputable university. Mispronouncing or even badly translating something does not mean much in my opinion. It's cosmetic.

I'm going to have look next week. If it's nonsense I'll call it out as such. But I've been taught to keep an open mind and not to base anything on opinion or hearsay. I'll have a look at the evidence .
 

oaktree

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Here's the thing about using nonsense wording in Japanese if you want to do that by all means however others who can read kanji or actually practice classical styles will call you out on it. Equally frustrating is using aikijujutsu should see my other thread when someone claimed Daito Ryu and I showed up and he couldn't even do ippon dori.

Names, lineages they mean something.
There is to much BS in martial arts and people trying to scam people out of their money. Martial talk is a non fraud busting site, however, we can point inconsistencies and have people draw their own conclusions based on that.
But again, maybe this group acknowledge that they created a modern style based on other arts here and there
 

Flying Crane

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I think the review was based on the quality of teaching rather than the art itself. I studied astrophysics at university. I'm pretty confident that if I went to a series of science classes I would be able to pick up on who knew their stuff and who was chancer, whether the class be astrophysics, microbiology, geochemistry or whatever. Maybe if it was a sufficiently different subject such as biology I'd struggle to appreciate what is generally accepted fact and what is complete nonsense. But if you have a quality teacher they're generally not going to teach rubbish.

Perhaps martial arts are different and you do get good teachers teaching bad subjects.

Now on the art itself, maybe it does have a bad name. Maybe it is Judo with a few bits from other things thrown in but does that necessarily make it bad? As someone on the link says it meets the requirements of the BJJA. Unless they are corrupt and/or incompetent perhaps judgement should be reserved until one actually see's it.

Mr Muramoto does critisise the name and argues that if they can't get the name right then they probably won't get anything else correct. I suck at ancient Greek and Latin. But I'm pretty confident that I could pass any undergraduate stellar astrophysics exam in any reputable university. Mispronouncing or even badly translating something does not mean much in my opinion. It's cosmetic.

I'm going to have look next week. If it's nonsense I'll call it out as such. But I've been taught to keep an open mind and not to base anything on opinion or hearsay. I'll have a look at the evidence .
If you go to a bunch of science classes in a university setting, those teachers have already been vetted and you can feel confident that they are qualified to teach the subject, and are in fact doing so.

Martial arts, in the big picture, doesn't have such a process. You might be able to recognize poo. But you might not.
 

pgsmith

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I'm going to have look next week. If it's nonsense I'll call it out as such. But I've been taught to keep an open mind and not to base anything on opinion or hearsay. I'll have a look at the evidence .
Yep, that's all you can do really. Just because they seem to be trying to be something they really aren't doesn't make them bad, just a bit misguided. There are a lot of places that want the Japanese "cachet" and feeling in their school without the bother of actually being connected to the Japanese. Whether what they practice is actually worth learning is an entirely different subject unless, as I said, you are really looking for a Japanese koryu.

Let us know what you learn!
 

Harry

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Does anyone know anything about this? Is it legit? I read a good review about it and it looks interesting to me. But I'm a newbie so I figured I'd ask here.
Hello, I have been training under seishin mizu ryu tatakai Jiu Jutsu for about 3 years now and have been doing muay thai for just as long. I know a fair bit of martial arts and would like to add my opinion to this (keep in mind that this is my experience and not everyone will be taught or experience the same). This is 2022 so obviously stuff online will be blown out of proportion, but the people I have trained with so far are very legit. Dont forget about when this was made, it was made in 1998 by an English martial artist and since its Britain and money is very important now a days the kanji is most likely off. BUT, if you examine and train in this style of ju jutsu or jiu jitsu and see aikido, judo, kenjutsu and other Japanese budo, you will find that these techniques are very similar and the core principles are the same. In my experience, where I am taught most of the higher dan have either been to Japan and practiced, or studied under many jiu jutsu schools and some even originally from kung fus and judo, this means that they add this to their training and it fits perfectly- evidently proving the techniques. Now I have used these throws and locks before in real life against people who do have been resisting and I combine it with muay thai and sparr and may very well fight in tournaments when I am a little more skilled but this is further proof of the legitimacy. You shouldnt judge a martial art by the practitioners as some are cocky, some arent actually skilled to use martial arts against boxing or kickboxing and some are too old and weak to fight. This is the same with most older styled fighting styles and if you want any martial art to work in todays day and age you must make it into a more modern version hence using muay thai. Like I said before, the techniques are similar to other traditional Japanese and some kung fu styles such as karate which has similarities to kung fus as karate altered martial arts forever and was born from kung fu. Now If I were in a clinch, I would have confidence to use goshi guruma, ashi guruma or a sweep like ko soto gari or a muay thai sweep. Evidence for the similarities- goshi guruma = SMRTJ jitsu, koshi guruma= Judo. Theyre the same throw just done slightly differently and in my experience, better grips as we dont hold the Gi for this but rather around the neck which adds support and means that It can be used in real life. As a martial art practitioner I will train in Japan, other styles of Jiu Jitsu/ jutsu and develop the style. But keep in mind the origin and the world today and if you want to know about a martial art: practice it, watch it, look at the origins and other similar styles and how it was made and remember that If a style isnt as known or seems dumb, research it and if it seems legit but the people who do it arent good thats probably the practitioners not the martial art. Thank you for listening and please keep this in mind for all arts!!
 
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