Security, Police Training, and perceptions...

[ballen0351]

she had the right (as a person, forget that she's a cop) to take whatever action necessary to defend.

Id go one step further not only does she have the right but as a police officer she has the responsibility to defend herself and win that fight. A loss would #1 give a criminal access to her weapon putting others in danger, and #2 weakens the confidence the citizens have in their law enforcement in that area.

 

[Buka]

TieXiongJi,

You say you are American but refer to "our" country in less than a first person way. You start this entire anti-police conversation with something to do with hiring low IQ officers.

You mention the distance need to defend a knife, but have no actual experience, or knowledge about it. You mention it again a sentence later, using the word "guarantee". Again, something you know nothing about, have absolutely no experience with. None.

For eight years you avoid and distrust the police. I can't even imagine how horrible that must be.

"You know there is a sickness in America."

You attempt to explain what you don't want to see happen, which has admittedly by you, already happened in your case, by using a V for vendetta reference. Really?

You repeatedly say you have lost trust in the police. Sure about that? Was it every really there, or were you taught that?

You experience with police officers comes from parties with off duty officers.

Your mention about "gang divisions" both saddened and angered me. But only for a moment. My guess (and my money) says you also have absolutely no experience with, and/or working knowledge of, gangs. None. Zip. Nada.

You say
"I am doing my best to act as a representative of the public discussing what the public sees".

You must realize that's a tad bizarre.

To me, the most telling thing you will ever say is this -
"I am not saying all cops are bad. I am attempting to be more subtle than that."

This seems to be a very important thing to you, a major issue. You're obviously well educated, my guess is financially okay, I could never live in America feeling as you do. If it were me, I'd relocate to another country. Not trying to be sarcastic or harsh, here, I just relocated 6,000 miles, same country, sure, but a move isn't all that hard.

Have you given that any thought? I know you mentioned Japan. They have a far less recidivism rate there. (my guess, 90%, maybe more.) Better prison system, too. I know several officers in Japan, they tell me when you serve time in a Japanese prison, you don't ever want to go back. Ever.

I could even hook you up with some of them. Maybe an off duty party or something.

 

[TieXiongJi]

the 5 prior pages should give you that answer

No. I have no idea where we agree at all.
I provided a list of statements of my ideals. Could you please read it and tell me where we disagree? I really hope it helps progress the conversation.

 

[ballen0351]

No. I have no idea where we agree at all.

Exactly that means we dont...

 

[Juany118]

That is fair point. Hindsight analysis must not include information unavailable to the participants. The only way for people outside of the situation to understand the decisions made by the participants is exhaustive, truthful testimony. Again, testimony is extremely flawed due to all of imperfections of our brains.

Here is the problem with your idea it misses the idea that the law recognizes the concept of reasonableness. So in short, the person relates what they knew in the heat of the moment. Then the Judge or Jury then, when not in the heat of the moment ask "does that seem reasonable?"

Read the article. Officer cited fear of public reprisal for not killing a citizen while out of their mind. All I have is that statement, so I will accept it at face value.
I am happier they both survived the conflict than if she had decided to kill.
Killing anyone is permanent; killing steals existence from another. A split decision made in a desperate moment could easily haunt a person for the rest of their life.
As a citizen, as a man of peace, I could only justify killing an assailant if I was unable to subdue them before they kill myself or another.

Well the "accept it at face value" comment in and of itself evidences an inherent suspicion. What is fact? An accident occured. Additional fact? testing showed the driver was high on wet. Additional fact, a female officer ended up in the hospital in "Serious Condition" from a beating she took from said suspect. Additional Fact "serious condition" means the officer suffered "serious bodily injury." In every State in the United States of America even a Civilian is allowed to use lethal force in order to prevent, or because of "Serious bodily injury."

Additionally, sorry, don't really care if that guy lived, I would have been happier with a cop needing an ice pack and a dead bad guy in this scenario. Here is why. This guy was not mentally ill. He knowing smoked an illegal substance known to make people prone to violence and to have issues walking a straight line let alone driving. He caused a car accident that could have hurt civilians because of his CHOICE. He then severely beat a female officer because of his CHOICE. Sorry but if your choice leads to something like that the consequences are on you and you don't, imo, have the right to take someone down with you because of your piss poor life choices. Seriously. I can sorta rationalize most drug use from an issue of self medication etc. Wet/PCP is the one exception.

I prefer holding off on discussing specific cases until we find out where we disagree on American policing.

I believe the point of disagreement is that you don't look at the situation logically, but rather emotionally. Are there bad cops? Yep. Are there decent cops that screw up? Also yes. However when you look at the incidents in question you actually see that a majority of the time when people jump to "he just murdered him!!!!" Social media has helped perpetuate a gross exaggeration. The VAST majority of cases get cleared not only by locals but the feds. We can argue "well if the officer would have gotten so close" or "if the officer had better training" How about the guy not run, not have an illegal weapon and actually listen to orders? Then you have the actual crimes which, in the face of the fact of over 800,000 officers in our country is so minute that police actually have a better record of doing the right thing that the Priesthood (and this coming from a Roman Catholic.)

Another thing people might want to remember is this. I was a soldier, now a cop. I wore a uniform both times, but they aren't the same. Yes I know my current job is dangerous but there is a very subtle but important difference. In the Army, after a patrol (I was a Scout), I went back to the FOB. Back to a place where I saw other uniforms, everyone kinda knowing "hey this could get me killed", you just tried not to think about it. Today I go HOME. Home to a lovely wife (if she isn't on duty on the opposite shift) and our cats (no kids). I might say "hey let me see if my brother, or brother-in-law, is free for a drink?" This creates an interesting mind set difference. In the Army we said "lets get the job done" when we went on patrol. In LE we say "lets all go home tonight."

People seem to think LEO's get paid to risk their lives. No we don't. That's the Army. LEOs get paid to protect innocent people, which MAY mean risking our lives but that "risk" is a consequence of our purpose. I don't get paid to wait for the bad guy to punch, shoot or stab first. I actually get paid to stop that from happening in the first place. Understand that and then maybe you will see where the difference lies.

 

[Steve]

I think that the police officers have a very difficult, dangerous and often thankless job. I also think that many are doing the best they can to do what they believe is right.

And also, many police forces are in a similar situation as the seattle PD, where there is a recognition that they can go about their business differently, ina way that isn't antagonistic to the community they police.

There's a middle ground here thats somewhere between most cops are bad and most cops are good, where we acknowledge the good work that is being done while also acknowledging that it could be done better in some very important areas.

 

[Juany118]

I think that the police officers have a very difficult, dangerous and often thankless job. I also think that many are doing the best they can to do what they believe is right.

And also, many police forces are in a similar situation as the seattle PD, where there is a recognition that they can go about their business differently, ina way that isn't antagonistic to the community they police.

There's a middle ground here thats somewhere between most cops are bad and most cops are good, where we acknowledge the good work that is being done while also acknowledging that it could be done better in some very important areas.

The thing is most police departments do engage, in my experience. Can some do a better job? Yep, and those need to be addressed. The thing is the ones that can do a better job are the ones who get the media hype, and so public perception doesn't quite match reality. Imo.

That isn't to say PD's can't improve. They are made of people, all people can improve. The thing is though that requires many of the things on this list (cribbed from an article.)

1. pay for better training.
2. pay for physical well being. A health police officer is a good one. If you have cops working 12 hour shifts, how much time do they have for family and working out/staying healthy.
3. pay for mental well being. The job is stressful 24/7. Most PDs however only provide mental health assistance after a crisis. Could the crisis have been averted?

I will try to find the article and link it because there was more but the long and short of it that many of the improvements needed will cost money and we are clearly in a "no make cut's don't raise my taxes" world all over. So, to an extent, you get what you pay for.

 

[Juany118]

Here is the article. Is America ready for the true cost of police reform?

I would love it if all of these things happened. However is your community willing to pay for it because it will cost.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The thing is most police departments do engage, in my experience. Can some do a better job? Yep, and those need to be addressed. The thing is the ones that can do a better job are the ones who get the media hype, and so public perception doesn't quite match reality. Imo.

That isn't to say PD's can't improve. They are made of people, all people can improve. The thing is though that requires many of the things on this list (cribbed from an article.)

1. pay for better training.
2. pay for physical well being. A health police officer is a good one. If you have cops working 12 hour shifts, how much time do they have for family and working out/staying healthy.
3. pay for mental well being. The job is stressful 24/7. Most PDs however only provide mental health assistance after a crisis. Could the crisis have been averted?

I will try to find the article and link it because there was more but the long and short of it that many of the improvements needed will cost money and we are clearly in a "no make cut's don't raise my taxes" world all over. So, to an extent, you get what you pay for.

Lest anyone think this is an unusual list, this aligns with what gets the best performance in any organization. Training, hours, and balance are common needs. The mental health support need is only unusual, until you look at other high-risk professions.

 

[Tez3]

One thing I'd like to point out is that policing is not a 'them and us' thing. Policing is everyone's concern and everyone should be doing 'their bit' as used to be said in the war. here, and I've no reason to doubt it's any different in the US, we have Neighbourhood Watches, community policing, meetings with local police officers in community places such as libraries, police visits to schools etc. It's a dialogue between the police and the community. yes the police get the job of investigating, arresting but people have to take responsibility too. Don't drink and drive, don't text/use mobile phone while driving, check your home security, keep an eye on elderly/vulnerable neighbours. Know where your children are and what they are doing. Report anything suspicious to the police, don't shrug your shoulders and say it's nothing to do with you. Don't leave everything to the police then complain when they appear heavy handed to you or they've pulled you over because you were speeding, you may think it's a free choice what speed you go but when driving past a school fast how quick can you stop if a child runs out? In other words think! don't go blithely around thinking you have to do nothing and the police will do it all for you, with the best will in the world however hard they try they cannot.
Ok rant over. I just really do think people should take their responsibilities seriously and not dump it all on the police and then complain about them!

 

[Steve]

The thing is most police departments do engage, in my experience. Can some do a better job? Yep, and those need to be addressed. The thing is the ones that can do a better job are the ones who get the media hype, and so public perception doesn't quite match reality. Imo.

That isn't to say PD's can't improve. They are made of people, all people can improve. The thing is though that requires many of the things on this list (cribbed from an article.)

1. pay for better training.
2. pay for physical well being. A health police officer is a good one. If you have cops working 12 hour shifts, how much time do they have for family and working out/staying healthy.
3. pay for mental well being. The job is stressful 24/7. Most PDs however only provide mental health assistance after a crisis. Could the crisis have been averted?

I will try to find the article and link it because there was more but the long and short of it that many of the improvements needed will cost money and we are clearly in a "no make cut's don't raise my taxes" world all over. So, to an extent, you get what you pay for.

i think you're saying exactly what I said. Aren't you?

 

[ballen0351]

I think a big problem is Police departments do a poor job or sometimes cant explain to the community why we do certain things we do.
For example I was a Narcotics Det. For several years. if we were in the middle of an operation doing buy/ busts and I go into a neighborhood buy dope. As I'm leaving I call the description to the arrest teams. Team goes in grabs little Billy off the steps in front of his apartment arrest him and take him away.
All the community knows is cops came out of no where grabbed little Billy for no reason and took him away. Now the real reason is little Billy just sold dope to a cop. When little Billy gets related a few hours later on bond he goes back to his neighborhood and doesn't say "opps I sold dope to a cop they arrested me" no he says he didn't do anything they grabbed him for no reason arrested him for no reason.

So now the community has an automatic distrust of the police and nothing the police say or do can fix it.

 

[Tez3]

I think a big problem is Police departments do a poor job or sometimes cant explain to the community why we do certain things we do.
For example I was a Narcotics Det. For several years. if we were in the middle of an operation doing buy/ busts and I go into a neighborhood buy dope. As I'm leaving I call the description to the arrest teams. Team goes in grabs little Billy off the steps in front of his apartment arrest him and take him away.
All the community knows is cops came out of no where grabbed little Billy for no reason and took him away. Now the real reason is little Billy just sold dope to a cop. When little Billy gets related a few hours later on bond he goes back to his neighborhood and doesn't say "opps I sold dope to a cop they arrested me" no he says he didn't do anything they grabbed him for no reason arrested him for no reason.

So now the community has an automatic distrust of the police and nothing the police say or do can fix it.

However I'm betting a good many of them would know exactly what he was doing but chose for a number of reasons to go along with what he was saying. The story gets out, makes it way to FB and YouTube and as we see on this thread gets picks up by people who then shout about the police instead of stopping to think that of course people knew he wasn't being picked up for nothing (very few police officers would bring someone in for nothing...think of the effort, the danger of going in, the time spent, the bloody paperwork, derision of your colleagues at being such a numpty etc, plain common sense and a knowledge of human nature tells you this!) Many have an agenda where the police are concerned and won't let the truth of a matter get in the way.

 

[Juany118]

i think you're saying exactly what I said. Aren't you?

Yes, I was more leading into the cost of the improvements in terms of real cash which I don't think you addressed. Sorry if I went a bit off track.

 

[Steve]

Yes, I was more leading into the cost of the improvements in terms of real cash which I don't think you addressed. Sorry if I went a bit off track.

No problem. I just wanted To make sure I'm not misreading your post, or that mine was misunderstood.

 

[Tgace]

The THING that grinds my gears is how the media/Social Media and even the "man on the street" looks at THE POLICE as some sort of universal thing in the USA.

Some Metro Cop gets in a questionable shoot in California and somehow my Mid-Size Agency in NY gets lumped into the "problem with our Police" basket. (Hell even if a Cop in the jurisdiction next-door did something stupid.....)

If we were discussing race or religion I believe we would be calling that bigotry.

 

[JP3]

I don't get paid to wait for the bad guy to punch, shoot or stab first. I actually get paid to stop that from happening in the first place. Understand that and then maybe you will see where the difference lies.

Very, very common mistaken perception of the public, I agree.

I also agree that if the person, intentionally ingests a dissiociative agent such as PCP in any of its forms, they by necessity also intend any of the actions that they take after under said agent's influence. you choose to use, you choose to do.

Which leads to, give the lady officer an icepack for a bruise whilst watching the idiot being taken away by the coroner.

 

[ballen0351]

Very, very common mistaken perception of the public, I agree.
.

Sadly not just the public feels that way. I charged a guy with assault for punching me and the judge said police officers can't be assaulted it's part of your job description.
He threw the charge out.

 

[Tez3]

Sadly not just the public feels that way. I charged a guy with assault for punching me and the judge said police officers can't be assaulted it's part of your job description.
He threw the charge out.

Here assaulting a police constable ( all police are constables regardless of rank as they all carry the same powers of arrest) is a criminal offence in itself. From the Police Act 1996
"89 Assaults on constables.E+W

(1)Any person who assaults a constable in the execution of his duty, or a person assisting a constable in the execution of his duty, shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.

(2)Any person who resists or wilfully obstructs a constable in the execution of his duty, or a person assisting a constable in the execution of his duty, shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one month or to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, or to both.

(3)This section also applies to a constable who is a member of a police force maintained in Scotland or Northern Ireland when he is executing a warrant, or otherwise acting in England or Wales, by virtue of any enactment conferring powers on him in England and Wales."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sadly not just the public feels that way. I charged a guy with assault for punching me and the judge said police officers can't be assaulted it's part of your job description.
He threw the charge out.

So, his theory is that "assault and battery on a police officer" is not a valid charge??