Security, Police Training, and perceptions...

drop bear

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If you look at the levels of violence, sadly, they mesh. As an example 3 Nations beat the US in firearms related Homicides; Afghanistan, Iraq and the Democratic Republic of Congo. The US is a schizophrenic Nation.

But as an example of unarmed people being shot. Brown. Did you know that the Feds not only said in their 80 page report that not only was there no Civil Rights violation but they affirmed the Grand Jury decision. They found multiple witnesses, who live in the neighborhood, who hid from the State, one barricaded their doors to avoid a grand jury subpoena. You try to take a cops gun then turn and charge the cop... Well trying to a take a gun is grounds for lethal force, charge after you failed the first time... Yeah.

Also size is a factor. If someone 250 lbs is pounding on my 170 lbs skinny butt, I can justify shooting them if the circumstances line up. There are so many variables and with the US having the highest rates of violence in the Western world, there will be more officer related shootings as a consequence.

Of course if there were two cops then they would be more able to handle that one guy.
 

TieXiongJi

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Hey guys. I get it. We all want to trust the police. I want to trust the police. But the shear difference between the US and other modern nations is staggering. Multiple countries have Travel Warnings for the United States because of our gun death problem.

I am not going to write a well sourced article since I am not a great writer, yet.
Here are some links to the statistics which, over the last 8 years, convinced me to avoid and distrust police.
List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States - Wikipedia
Hundreds of Police Killings Are Uncounted in Federal Stats
The counted: inside the search for the real number of police killings in the US

This one is tough because of the racial lines even though I understand it is the result of many factors.
Deadly Force, in Black and White

Easy way to see all US deaths.
WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports

Other countries:
How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths
"The Japanese and American ways of thinking about crime, privacy, and police powers are so differentand Japan is such a generally peaceful countrythat its functionally impossible to fully isolate and compare the two gun control regiments."
I speak Japanese well enough to move there. Possible destination.

Trigger happy
"Last year, in total, British police officers actually fired their weapons three times."

China Crime Facts & Stats
China seems much more peaceful than I had supposed.

Also Jimmy Dore.

I know this is a bit much. Please do your own research.
We have a serious police training problem in the US. We can't keep on keeping on like this. I don't have the answer, but I know there is a sickness in America.
 

Tgace

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but I know there is a sickness in America.

But it aint with cops.....
 

Tgace

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Ever think that maybe the citizens of the US are not like "other nations"?

Take Detroit, Chicago, Oakland, etc out of the equation and you would be surprised at how the numbers realign....
 

TieXiongJi

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Ever think that maybe the citizens of the US are not like "other nations"?

Take Detroit, Chicago, Oakland, etc out of the equation and you would be surprised at how the numbers realign....
Of course, the sickness is more than one thing. As I said, I don't have the answer, I just know there is a serious problem.
Half of our citizens earn below $50k/year. And we have the highest guns per capita. America #1!
 

ballen0351

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Of course, the sickness is more than one thing. As I said, I don't have the answer, I just know there is a serious problem.
Half of our citizens earn below $50k/year. And we have the highest guns per capita. America #1!
Except it's not as "serious" as you and the media make it out to be. I've been an officer for 16 years. I've held multiple position from simple street cop, Swat team leader, detective, k9 handler, training officer. I've worked in Baltimore a semi large US City, a suburban County of Washington DC and Baltimore city, and now a small rural sheriff dept. in 16 years I've probably contacted hundreds of thousands of people in an offical capacity. Some good and some evil. I've shot 1 person in all that time and he was armed.
I'M the abnormality the vast majority of officers will go Thier entire career and never fire their weapon at a human.
Every day there are hundreds of thousands of police and citizen interactions where nothing happens. The stats don't support your fears. You are free to fear whatever you want people have irrational fears of all kinds of things. I don't like being on roofs, I've hung from the bottom of helicopters and rappelled down mountains and I'm fine but a single story normal roof freaks me out but I know it's an irrational fear.
 

ballen0351

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Hey guys. I get it. We all want to trust the police. I want to trust the police. But the shear difference between the US and other modern nations is staggering. Multiple countries have Travel Warnings for the United States because of our gun death problem.

I am not going to write a well sourced article since I am not a great writer, yet.
Here are some links to the statistics which, over the last 8 years, convinced me to avoid and distrust police.
List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States - Wikipedia
Hundreds of Police Killings Are Uncounted in Federal Stats
The counted: inside the search for the real number of police killings in the US

This one is tough because of the racial lines even though I understand it is the result of many factors.
Deadly Force, in Black and White

Easy way to see all US deaths.
WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports

Other countries:
How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths
"The Japanese and American ways of thinking about crime, privacy, and police powers are so differentand Japan is such a generally peaceful countrythat its functionally impossible to fully isolate and compare the two gun control regiments."
I speak Japanese well enough to move there. Possible destination.

Trigger happy
"Last year, in total, British police officers actually fired their weapons three times."

China Crime Facts & Stats
China seems much more peaceful than I had supposed.

Also Jimmy Dore.

I know this is a bit much. Please do your own research.
We have a serious police training problem in the US. We can't keep on keeping on like this. I don't have the answer, but I know there is a sickness in America.
It's interesting when people compare police in other countries to the US.
One article you picked said British police fired their weapons 3 times in a year.
So let's look at that. The newest data I could find showed 537 total muders in all of the UK for 2016. 1 city in the US Chicago had over 700. So the Entire country had less murders than 1 of our cities. We have massive violent crime gangs that will kill someone simply for wearing the wrong sports teams shirt on the wrong street.
So the police in this country deal with far more violent offenders then most other 1st world nations. Violent offenders that won't hesitate to walk up to an officer who's bent over rending medial attention to a woman in a car accident and shoot him in the back of the his head. So it would only stand to reason US officers would be involved in more violent and more armed confrontation then other places.
But even with all that Going against them the chances of you getting killed by the police is pretty slim. It gets even more less likely when you cooperate and learn to fight your battle in the court room and not the streets.
 
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Xue Sheng

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Hey guys. I get it. We all want to trust the police. I want to trust the police. But the shear difference between the US and other modern nations is staggering. Multiple countries have Travel Warnings for the United States because of our gun death problem.

Multiple countries have issued warnings but not because of Police shootings. It is actually a rather small number as compared to total gun deaths. This does not make it acceptable but I am getting the impression you are trying to blame this all on shootings done by police officers and that is simply not the case

Gun Deaths in America
 

Gerry Seymour

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Hey guys. I get it. We all want to trust the police. I want to trust the police. But the shear difference between the US and other modern nations is staggering. Multiple countries have Travel Warnings for the United States because of our gun death problem.

I am not going to write a well sourced article since I am not a great writer, yet.
Here are some links to the statistics which, over the last 8 years, convinced me to avoid and distrust police.
List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States - Wikipedia
Hundreds of Police Killings Are Uncounted in Federal Stats
The counted: inside the search for the real number of police killings in the US

This one is tough because of the racial lines even though I understand it is the result of many factors.
Deadly Force, in Black and White

Easy way to see all US deaths.
WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports

Other countries:
How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths
"The Japanese and American ways of thinking about crime, privacy, and police powers are so differentand Japan is such a generally peaceful countrythat its functionally impossible to fully isolate and compare the two gun control regiments."
I speak Japanese well enough to move there. Possible destination.

Trigger happy
"Last year, in total, British police officers actually fired their weapons three times."

China Crime Facts & Stats
China seems much more peaceful than I had supposed.

Also Jimmy Dore.

I know this is a bit much. Please do your own research.
We have a serious police training problem in the US. We can't keep on keeping on like this. I don't have the answer, but I know there is a sickness in America.
Much of what you refer to has more to do with the prevalence of guns than with the police. Many people cite police shootings of unarmed people vs. the same in other countries. That ignores the fact that in most countries the potential for someone to have a gun is quite small, so the police aren't as constantly aware of the danger. In the US, literally any traffic stop in most states could involve a weapon. There's an instant where a cop thinks there's a gun, and he/she has to make a decision RIGHT THEN whether to treat it as a gun (which probably means shooting) or to assume it isn't (which risks getting shot if they're wrong). It's not an easy position, and it nearly guarantees mistakes in both directions.

And I'm actually pro-ownership.
 

Tez3

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The other was a suicidal soldier, who had a pistol on a table. Every cop shot the guy much faster than soldiers would...

To a large extent that will have changed for many members of the military after Afghanistan. When our troops ( both US and UK) had to start training the Afghan army and police force we learnt very quickly after several deaths that those training and taking the Afghans out on exercise had to watch for a rogue soldier/police officer who would attempt to shoot them. It was more akin to the situation you describe of the suicidal soldier with the weapon than 'normal' combat. Very strange training people under those circumstances too. Imagine instructing a class where one or more of the students is planning to kill you all. For me the sadness was teaching female officers knowing they were targets sometimes from their own families.

The newest data I could find showed 537 total muders in all of the UK for 2016.

Were they by area/city/county etc or were they figures for the UK as a whole? I ask because here murders of Britons abroad are dealt with by the Coroner's Court here where the inquests are held, this means the numbers of murders are added to the British total. The inquest start this month on 30 British people who were murdered in Tunisia in 2015. the Coroner will almost certainly give a verdict of 'unlawfully killed' so sadly those numbers will be added to the UK murder figures.
 

ballen0351

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Were they by area/city/county etc or were they figures for the UK as a whole? I ask because here murders of Britons abroad are dealt with by the Coroner's Court here where the inquests are held, this means the numbers of murders are added to the British total. The inquest start this month on 30 British people who were murdered in Tunisia in 2015. the Coroner will almost certainly give a verdict of 'unlawfully killed' so sadly those numbers will be added to the UK murder figures.
I'm not really sure it was actually kind of hard to even find the data.
And full disclosure I have no idea how reliable the data was it was just the only one I could see that has numbers listed for all I know this could be a "fake news" site
Murders in the UK
 

TieXiongJi

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Except it's not as "serious" as you and the media make it out to be. I've been an officer for 16 years. I've held multiple position from simple street cop, Swat team leader, detective, k9 handler, training officer. I've worked in Baltimore a semi large US City, a suburban County of Washington DC and Baltimore city, and now a small rural sheriff dept. in 16 years I've probably contacted hundreds of thousands of people in an offical capacity. Some good and some evil. I've shot 1 person in all that time and he was armed.
I'M the abnormality the vast majority of officers will go Thier entire career and never fire their weapon at a human.
Every day there are hundreds of thousands of police and citizen interactions where nothing happens. The stats don't support your fears. You are free to fear whatever you want people have irrational fears of all kinds of things. I don't like being on roofs, I've hung from the bottom of helicopters and rappelled down mountains and I'm fine but a single story normal roof freaks me out but I know it's an irrational fear.

You mentioned Baltimore.
What are your thoughts on Michael Wood, Jr.? Whistle blower from Baltimore.

Every bodycam video showing an officer killing an unarmed man, many times while they are obeying orders, causes me great sorrow.
I have enough money that I do not need to steal for survival, I live in a calm area of town where the police are closer to customer service than law enforcement, I am not afraid for my own safety.
I will heed your words regarding sensationalism, but I am just a single person. I know many others with similar concerns and fears regarding police.
As public trust wanes, the police will face more danger from many directions.

'V for Vendetta' has a scene showing the moment the public stops trusting the police. I don't want to see that happen because I know the societal consequences are dire; violent reform to say the least.
We MUST resolve conflicts using as little force as possible. The police may take a few hits in the process, but on the day the public believes the institution is a lost cause we will have many more problems to solve.
 

Juany118

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Hey guys. I get it. We all want to trust the police. I want to trust the police. But the shear difference between the US and other modern nations is staggering. Multiple countries have Travel Warnings for the United States because of our gun death problem.

I am not going to write a well sourced article since I am not a great writer, yet.
Here are some links to the statistics which, over the last 8 years, convinced me to avoid and distrust police.
List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States - Wikipedia
Hundreds of Police Killings Are Uncounted in Federal Stats
The counted: inside the search for the real number of police killings in the US

This one is tough because of the racial lines even though I understand it is the result of many factors.
Deadly Force, in Black and White

Easy way to see all US deaths.
WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports

Other countries:
How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths
"The Japanese and American ways of thinking about crime, privacy, and police powers are so differentand Japan is such a generally peaceful countrythat its functionally impossible to fully isolate and compare the two gun control regiments."
I speak Japanese well enough to move there. Possible destination.

Trigger happy
"Last year, in total, British police officers actually fired their weapons three times."

China Crime Facts & Stats
China seems much more peaceful than I had supposed.

Also Jimmy Dore.

I know this is a bit much. Please do your own research.
We have a serious police training problem in the US. We can't keep on keeping on like this. I don't have the answer, but I know there is a sickness in America.
Wikipedia is a HORRIBLE reference source for anything statistically based. Statistics is a science as such it much be peer reviewed to have validity. Also there is no verifiable editorial overwrite as well.
 

TieXiongJi

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Wikipedia is a HORRIBLE reference source for anything statistically based. Statistics is a science as such it much be peer reviewed to have validity. Also there is no verifiable editorial overwrite as well.

Well, I did say I wouldn't write a Well Sourced article. These are top hits from google.

Where do you find the best statistics?
 

Tgace

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And consider the UK population is approx 64 million. California alone is about 39 million.....

Comparing the entire United States to any other nation is a bit erroneous IMO. Our States vary widely from each other in population, crime levels, cultures, etc.

The US is unique in that we lump all of the various States together and then compare them to European Nations to make politicized points.
 

ballen0351

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You mentioned Baltimore.
What are your thoughts on Michael Wood, Jr.? Whistle blower from Baltimore.
I think he exaggerated numerous claims and flat out lied on others. He all of a sudden got a conscious after he quit on less then good terms and now remembers random incidents of police brutality with no officer or victim identified. Makes for good media fodder but in 16 years Ive never seen anyone drop their pants and take a crap on someones bed. If it was so bad why did he not report incidents when they happened to the Internal Affairs office. Baltimore City has full time internal affairs officers and you can report things anonymously.
Every bodycam video showing an officer killing an unarmed man, many times while they are obeying orders, causes me great sorrow.
Ive never seen any videos where a compliant unarmed suspect was shot for no reason Im sure a few might exist but I can think of any Ive seen (Now I also don't generally go out searching for these videos because without context they generally dont give the entire picture of what happened). The closest thing I can recall is the Michael Slager shooting and they arrested him.
I have enough money that I do not need to steal for survival, I live in a calm area of town where the police are closer to customer service than law enforcement, I am not afraid for my own safety.
Thats how 90% of the country is
I will heed your words regarding sensationalism, but I am just a single person. I know many others with similar concerns and fears regarding police.
As public trust wanes, the police will face more danger from many directions.
Thats because it sells advertising so the media has a vested interest in making it as big as they can. I've even seen news stories that when talking about police shooting and they count Trevon Martin in the stats as well as incidents of Domestic violence where the suspect killed their wives of husbands Now technically it was an officer shooting someone but it was usually off duty and its a domestic situation and not a law enforcement action but it helps the narrative.
'V for Vendetta' has a scene showing the moment the public stops trusting the police. I don't want to see that happen because I know the societal consequences are dire; violent reform to say the least.
Well its a movie so....
We MUST resolve conflicts using as little force as possible. The police may take a few hits in the process, but on the day the public believes the institution is a lost cause we will have many more problems to solve.
And the actual Stats show that is the case most arrests are nonviolent and the ones that aren't very few end in death.
 

ballen0351

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Like this site that feeds the narrative. The headline sounds bad but once you start looking at the actual incident well it paints a different story.
Police killed more than 100 unarmed black people in 2015

some of these "police Violence" are car accident involving police cars. Some of the "unarmed" people were found with toy guns or fake guns. Some died from unknown medical conditions Some were killed by security guards who are not even police officers, One of them the passenger in the car was a homicide suspect and opened fire on the officers the driver was his girlfriend and was also shot and killed when police returned fire so was she really "unarmed", .........
 

drop bear

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Ever think that maybe the citizens of the US are not like "other nations"?

Take Detroit, Chicago, Oakland, etc out of the equation and you would be surprised at how the numbers realign....

Which is unfortunately countered by good policing. So even if it is every one else and not you.

The solution does not really change.
 

drop bear

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Like this site that feeds the narrative. The headline sounds bad but once you start looking at the actual incident well it paints a different story.
Police killed more than 100 unarmed black people in 2015

some of these "police Violence" are car accident involving police cars. Some of the "unarmed" people were found with toy guns or fake guns. Some died from unknown medical conditions Some were killed by security guards who are not even police officers, One of them the passenger in the car was a homicide suspect and opened fire on the officers the driver was his girlfriend and was also shot and killed when police returned fire so was she really "unarmed", .........

Yeah ok. There are people that make an unreasonable argument. But that does not mean there isn't a reasonable one.
 

drop bear

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And consider the UK population is approx 64 million. California alone is about 39 million.....

Comparing the entire United States to any other nation is a bit erroneous IMO. Our States vary widely from each other in population, crime levels, cultures, etc.

The US is unique in that we lump all of the various States together and then compare them to European Nations to make politicized points.

I tend to look at Australia and texas. As they are about the same population wise.

Of course cops shoot more guys in a year over there than have ever been shot here.
 

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