Secrecy in Kung Fu Today/ arrogance in MA's

Xue Sheng

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Both examples are meaningless. Because they start with an incorrect statement about non-CMA.

Better saying from TCMA...the body is a fist.

basically if the fist misses then the elbow if the elbow misses then the shoulder (one of my favorites Cao) ..basically you can hit with any part of the body, no missing required
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Both examples are meaningless. Because they start with an incorrect statement about non-CMA.
Do you have any clip to show that a punch is followed by a grab, and pull in any non-CMA system?

I do know it doesn't exist in boxing because the boxing gloves. Does it exist in Karate, TKD, MT, ...?

Here is an example of the CMA punch-grab-pull. It's a great way to obtain clinch.

my-punch-pull.gif
 

Flying Crane

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Do you have any clip to show that a punch is followed by a grab, and pull in any non-CMA system?

I do know it doesn't exist in boxing because the boxing gloves. Does it exist in Karate, TKD, MT, ...?

Here is an example of the CMA punch-grab-pull.

View attachment 27712
It looks to me like that first move you make is not a punch. Looks more like some kind of deflection that rolls into a grab. Lots of that kind of thing in Parker-derived kenpo.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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It looks to me like that first move you make is not a punch. Looks more like some kind of deflection that rolls into a grab. Lots of that kind of thing in Parker-derived kenpo.
Whether your punch is fake or real depend on whether your opponent tries to block it or not.

If your opponent

- doesn't raise his arm, your punch will meet his face.
- raise his arm, your punch will change into a hook-grab-pull.

The intention of change is what I'm talking about. In many MA videos, after one's opponent blocks his punch, he just pulls his punching arm back, that hook-grab-pull intention is not there.

No punch-hook-grab-pull intention in the following clip.

 
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Flying Crane

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Whether your punch is fake or real depend on whether your opponent tries to block it or not.

If your opponent

- doesn't raise his arm, your punch will meet his face.
- raise his arm, your punch will change into a hook-grab-pull.
Except that it looks to me like you are responding to his movement, not the other way around. He raises his arm, you deflect and roll into a grab.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Except that it looks to me like you are responding to his movement, not the other way around. He raises his arm, you deflect and roll into a grab.
Of course I'm responding to my opponent's move. My opponent raises his arm, I change my punch into ...

When your punch fail, you will have 2 options.

1. Pull your punch back and throw another punch.
2. Change your punch into something else.

IMO, CMA utilizes 2 more than non-CMA.
 
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Flying Crane

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Of course I'm responding to my opponent's move. My opponent raises his arm, I change my punch into ...
But it was never a punch. It was always a deflection. That kind of thing is common in many martial arts: respond to perceived attack, deflect the enemys arm and roll into a grab. Somehow I doubt there is a martial system that does not include it, other than perhaps sports that have a rule set against it, or otherwise have equipment that make it impossible, like boxing.

But my point is, you yourself are not showing what you claim to have. You say that Chinese methods have this thing, then to give an example, you show a clip that does not show that thing.

A deliberate punch dives energy forward. Just reaching out in any old way is not the same thing as a punch. What you can do off of that, in terms of transition, is different.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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But it was never a punch. It was always a deflection. That kind of thing is common in many martial arts: respond to perceived attack, deflect the enemys arm and roll into a grab. Somehow I doubt there is a martial system that does not include it, other than perhaps sports that have a rule set against it, or otherwise have equipment that make it impossible, like boxing.

But my point is, you yourself are not showing what you claim to have. You say that Chinese methods have this thing, then to give an example, you show a clip that does not show that thing.

A deliberate punch dives energy forward. Just reaching out in any old way is not the same thing as a punch. What you can do off of that, in terms of transition, is different.
That's just a demo clip and I know my opponent will block my punch.

Even in a real fight, when you punch 1/2 way, you should be able to tell whether your opponent has intention to block your punch or not. If you can detect that, you will change your real punch into a fake punch in very early stage.

Old CMA saying said, "箸銝蝛箏 You should not pull your punch hand back empty." I just have not heard any non-CMA system say that.
 
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Flying Crane

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That's just a demo clip and I know my opponent will block my punch.

Even in a real fight, when you punch 1/2 way, you should be able to tell whether your opponent has intention to block your punch or not. If you can detect that, you will change your real punch into a fake punch in very early stage.
But your opponent did not block your punch because you did not punch. He moved first.

This THING that you say only CMA have, you have not shown that you have it.
 

Flying Crane

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Does this clip show the CMA principle, "銝蝛箏 One should not pull his punching hand back empty"?

Im not sure what that is showing. But I do not feel it is in any way a universal principle, not to pull back the hand empty. I do it all the time. It is also, by the way, commonly discussed by the karate folks about the meaning of chambering the hand at the hip. Grab and pull, but whether it comes off a punch, I think, depends.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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But I do not feel it is in any way a universal principle, not to pull back the hand empty. I do it all the time. It is also, by the way, commonly discussed by the karate folks about the meaning of chambering the hand at the hip. Grab and pull, but whether it comes off a punch, I think, depends.
I didn't say it's a universal principle. I say it's a CMA principle - the punching hand should not come back empty.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Do you have any clip to show that a punch is followed by a grab, and pull in any non-CMA system?

I do know it doesn't exist in boxing because the boxing gloves. Does it exist in Karate, TKD, MT, ...?

Here is an example of the CMA punch-grab-pull. It's a great way to obtain clinch.

View attachment 27712
Every system I've dabbled in or attended a seminar for, if it had any grappling, had this principle. That'd include FMA, JMA, and some CMA/JMA crossovers.
 

Paul Calugaru

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Actually, you just made my day. I expected you hadnt trained TCMA at all, but just wanted to criticize and ridicule as an outsider who knows nothing about it other than it isnt commonly seen in MMA. I am glad to be wrong in this case.
You hit the nail right on the head.

I try not to criticize.
Yet, because I've have had the pleasure of getting my chiclets rocked, or my swagger choke out of me by some serious MA's while working on my Xingyiquan, I sometimes feel the need to say something.. (although I shouldn't)
 

Paul Calugaru

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Both examples are meaningless. Because they start with an incorrect statement about non-CMA.
Agreed ... the Okinawan term "hikite" (to grab/pull back....) many styles of Karate use grabbing to full effect
 

Flying Crane

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You hit the nail right on the head.

I try not to criticize.
Yet, because I've have had the pleasure of getting my chiclets rocked, or my swagger choke out of me by some serious MA's while working on my Xingyiquan, I sometimes feel the need to say something.. (although I shouldn't)
I can certainly recognize that there is often room for criticism, and I am much more open to hearing it from a fellow practitioner.

Its kinda like, I can call up my brother and say, hey, mom is making me crazy, what is her deal right now?? But if someone from outside the family says to me, hey your mom is a crazy beeeyoch, well now weve got a real problem because it aint for an outsider to comment on or get involved with.

I kinda feel that way about this as well. Seems like some folks just want to tear down based on an outsiders yardstick that may have no relevance, without having the understanding that an insider has.
 
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