Scientific Study Says People Are Too Stupid for Democracy

celtic_crippler

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Maybe it's tapatalk, but the post you're linking is neither by cc nor an answer to my question.

Cc, it's a long thread and I'm not as smart As you. Can you at least give me a post number?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

ROFL... it was post #8 in this thread.

Here:

I personally like the appeal of a Heinlein approach. This theory asserts that only citizens can participate in government, and to become a citizen one must first have a certain level of education and also contribute to society.

The idea is that by sacrificing to achieve a certain level of education and by sacrificing part of one’s early life one will place a higher value on the liberties and freedoms they obtain from it. In essence, it creates a greater level of responsibility and leads to one feeling they have “skin in the game.”

Sacrifice could obviously include military service, but could also lead to the creation of other programs. For example, a “Peace Corps” that instead of focusing on other countries, goes out to our poorer communities and helps rebuild slums, feed the poor, and/or provided medical assistance and indigent care.

Of course, those serving in a life-long, career-type capacity would be included; firemen, police, etc. But all would also be required to have a certain level of education including, not omitting as schools in Washington DC are now doing, but including an in depth study of Civics and Government.
 

arnisador

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Heinlein's work is a bit more than science fiction. Starship Troopers for example is required reading at West Point. It is I think a very important work thinly disquised as a Sci-Fi story.

I don't think that's (still?) true, but I do know it has been used at some of the war colleges.
 

arnisador

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Starship Troopers is a very good example if you are inclined to the fascist type of thought.

The movie--which sucks--turns the idea around somewhat. I found his ideas on citizenry and on officers starting out as enlisted personnel thought-provoking, but ultimately wide suffrage matters. Has anyone tried these ideas? YES! The Spartans did--in the 600-300BCE range, only the relatively small number of hereditary Spartiates who went through the agoge military training and could afford to pay for their share of the army's barracks expenses were citizens:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta#Citizenship


It's no more important than Frank Herbert's 'Dune' and infinitely less important than anything by Philip K Dick.

Dune is a great take on the interplay of the intertwined powers of federal and local govt., religion, and transportation. But, agree w.r.t. PKD.
 

Tez3

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Perhaps before starting on grand schemes to have it's citizens enrolled in duites and sacrificing themselves for the state, the state could sort education for it's children out. Then perhaps, we wouldn't need discussions such as these because the children would be properly educated not ignorant, growing into adults useful to themselves and others.
Education should be the jewel in every country's crown, it should be available to every child and every child should be taught to think and reason,to learn. Money doesn't give you this, the passion of teachers does. You need the hunger back, the desire to learn and to push yourselves.
For so long America has been the biggest and the richest country on the planet, you've got used to that and life for a long time was relatively easy for you so you lost the drive while other countries especially perhaps in Asia have fast been catching up to you. Now in a time of recession it's been a shock but you are like an unfit, flabby fighter with ring rust who is fighting with his coach, cornermen and sparring partners instead of the proper opponent. You can see it on here, the constant posts of how the left is this and the right is that etc etc. the people who aren't stupid turn round and say 'you know what? stuff the lot of them'. This gun control thing is turning into a mammoth slagging match rather than any constructive debate because it's easier to insult each other than actually work together. It happens with every single subject, people are so entrenched in their position they can't see the wood for the trees.
Even now there'll be people here framing posts slagging me off for writing this, probably giving me bad rep too instead of framing a constructive post, it's easier to call people stupid and label them mentally ill than actually look at their side of an argument. You don't like what I said (along with a lot of distinguished critics I might add) about a book well it must be obvious I've never read it then not only that I must never have read any books, what sort of argument is that? It's lazy, it's the 'you disagree with me so you're stupid' school of arguing, the fat fighter's argument.

Sort the education out first then you will find you have the tools to work with. There are children in Nepal who walk two hours down a mountain to get to school and two hours and a half hours back up because of the value put on their education, it happens in many countries because education is everything, it's road out of poverty, of ignorance and to self suffiency. You don't have films like High School Musical made about these schools! they are for learning not socialising lol!

Rather than sit pontificating about the useless of young people, an eons old pastime, perhaps we could have some constructive ideas for the here and now.
 

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Maybe it's tapatalk, but the post you're linking is neither by cc nor an answer to my question.

Cc, it's a long thread and I'm not as smart As you. Can you at least give me a post number?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Just trying to help. The link works on my end.
P.S. Don't be so hard on yourself, you seem to be a fairly smart guy. :)
 

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First step in "sorting" education out is to take it out of the hands of government bureaucrats and privatize it. Till we do that it will be about as efficient as the local department of motor vehicles.
 

WC_lun

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So only the educated or people who have sacrified get to vote. So what happens when they vote someone into office or pass a piece of legislation you don't like? Where does the bar raise from there? Poll taxes so only those who are 'makers' can vote? What about IQ test? Or should it be only people who served in the military? Start limiting the ability of everyone to vote and you start handing power to a smaller and smaller group of people. In a democracy that is the absolute worst thing you can do. Our founding fathers were actually pretty smart about this and so have our people over time, including minroty and womens suffrage. Personally I'd hate to see it thrown away by giving more power to less people. That is simply Anti-American.
 

Tez3

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First step in "sorting" education out is to take it out of the hands of government bureaucrats and privatize it. Till we do that it will be about as efficient as the local department of motor vehicles.

Privatising it also takes it out of the reach of everyone and ensures only the rich have access to good education thus defeating the object of getting the less well off being able to get out of the situation they are in. If people want a 'service corps' they could do worst than have one of teachers who are committed to making sure education is what it should be.
Only when education is seen as being one of the most important things in life and that it's worth having will any type of school be successful, privatising isn't the answer, a complete change of mindset is needed if you want to go forward to have the brightest and the best not just the richest running your country.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2003/oct/28/schools.uk4

Children in Asia and Africa work hard because that's their route out of poverty and into a better way of life, it benefits the whole country to have a good standard of education available to all, when young people are taught that success comes through hard work and not an appearnace on X Factor will you see a change in a country's fortunes and in it's people. Education isn't in children's beauty or talent competitions. Strip back all schools to the basics, recruit teachers with imagination and passion for teaching, have all pupils wear a basic school uniform to make everyone the same, no rich in designer clothes and instil in young people that it's good to learn. It's an attitude change that's needed not private schools. Universal education should be a right not a privilege only for those than can afford it.
 
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Makalakumu

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Did privatizing martial arts instruction take out of the hands of poor people or can people find ways to learn martial arts if they want to?
 

celtic_crippler

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So only the educated or people who have sacrified get to vote. So what happens when they vote someone into office or pass a piece of legislation you don't like? Where does the bar raise from there? Poll taxes so only those who are 'makers' can vote? What about IQ test? Or should it be only people who served in the military? Start limiting the ability of everyone to vote and you start handing power to a smaller and smaller group of people. In a democracy that is the absolute worst thing you can do. Our founding fathers were actually pretty smart about this and so have our people over time, including minroty and womens suffrage. Personally I'd hate to see it thrown away by giving more power to less people. That is simply Anti-American.

And here is evidence to support the OP... no offense, but you don't understand and are misinformed.

The whole idea behind a Republic is that the Rights of all are protected. One must first understand the difference between a Democracy and a Republic.
Voting is a priviledge. Priviledges must be earned. Rights are God-given and therefore can not be intruded upon by man. It is the responsibility of the Republic to protect the Rights of everyone. This basic concept has been forgotten, hence all the nonsense with "gun-control", "gay marriage", ad nauseum... The masses have been indoctrinated to think we are a Democracy when we are not. Democracy's are dangerous as they equate to "Mob Rules".

For example: A lynch mob riding high on emotion and insisting upon hanging a man simply because he "looks" like a cattle thief and is a stranger in their community is a Democracy. The Marshal who tells them they can't do that, and that the man is entitled to due process, is an example of a Republic; the rule of law.

That being said, a certain amount of "responsibility" must be proven to earn a priviledge. The Founders understood this, that's why they created a Republic and not a Democracy.

But nobody realizes that because they don't teach it in public schools and the mass media constantly refers to our nation as a Democracy.
 

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Great thing about private martial arts schools is if you have problems with one you can move to a different one. Quality is rewarded with business. Government Schools have your kid pigeon holed into a classroom that they choose whether it's best for your kid or not. It's rubbish.
 

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In fact there are many people who would like to study martial arts and cannot do so because of money isuues. For many years I taught underpriviledged kids and heard over and over again how grateful the kids and parents were because they could not afford a normal class. So Mak, I'm gonna have to disagree with your post on this one.
 

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You contradict yourself sir... You taught those kids. They did learn regardless of income.
 

Tez3

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Missing the point people. People who want to learn martial arts I'm sure will find a way, how would we go about teaching people martial arts who didn't see the point in it or who didn't want to because that's the situation with education. People have to first be persuaded that a good education is something that's valuable and will benefit everyone, we have to persuade young people that education will benefit them and going on X Factor is not the way forward. Martial art schools succeed because it's voluntary and people want to do it, education is a different matter altogether.
A private school may well not be any better teaching children than a government school because the parents may be happy that their children are occupied and out of their hair so the school looks successful. We have private schools like that here, people send their children mostly because they are boarding schools and they keep them occupied with sports, trips and activities, do they have a good academic record not so much but the parents are happy.
A change in mindset needs to happen otherwise standards in all schools will never get better. We need to raise our and the children's expectations of themselves. and yes perhaps we do need to teach them to be better citizens, it's not that they need specific lessons more than a good general education covers this ie in history, in geography, learning about other people and other countries. Science should be taught properly no interference from outside bodies and I don't mean the government. Teaching in schools what belief systems there are in the world is part of learning about the diverse nations and peoples of the world, teaching children what to believe in the way of religion/belief is the parents job.

It's not as simple as saying privatise schools, you need first to understand what you want and need from education and make sure every child has access to the best schooling there is, then you will have something that is of benefit to everyone.
 

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I don't know how schools are in England but our local schools are just babysitting service. My daughter (middle school) makes straight A's and is on the honor role yet she still needs to ask me how to spell every third or fourth word when she writes a paper. I don't know what they are teaching her but it isn't very useful.
 
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Makalakumu

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Missing the point people. People who want to learn martial arts I'm sure will find a way, how would we go about teaching people martial arts who didn't see the point in it or who didn't want to because that's the situation with education. People have to first be persuaded that a good education is something that's valuable and will benefit everyone, we have to persuade young people that education will benefit them and going on X Factor is not the way forward. Martial art schools succeed because it's voluntary and people want to do it, education is a different matter altogether.

The point is that people who want an education will find a way to make it happen. Sometimes words aren't enough in terms of persuasion. People need to see results. They need to see consequences. That's what motivates people to take martial arts instruction. That is also what motivates people to take any education.

One of the effects of government compulsory schooling is that it changed the way people view education. When everyone is forced to go, education no longer becomes the pupils responsibility. It's something that others do to you, not something you do for yourself. The effect of this change has been horrendous for our students. It has effectively removed the drive to learn anything.
 
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