School Challeneges

[7starmantis]

I was just curious about how many of you guys have had to put up with, or welcome people coming into your school and "challenging" you to fight? Also, I would like to lump into "challenges" crazy folks who come into your school just trying to start a fight. This happened to me just the other day, and I got to thinking about how often it happens. I'm curious as to how many of you guys accept challenges, and if you guys do or don't, do you have to deal with people coming in trying to fight you?

7sm

 

[HammerFist]

I've never had a "formal" challenge but I have experienced people who come in from other schools and act as if they want to take class with the rest of us. We spar every class so they always end up fighting a few of us. Very few of them actually stay around for more than one or two classes.

Many of them have decent fighting skills but zero cardio. it's pretty entertaining watching these people with "something to prove" gasping for air as you're going to town on them.

 

[Tgace]

The proper way to handle this situation..

Ask them to leave, if they dont, call the police and charge them with trespass.

If they verbally threaten you or push/contact you in a manner that dosent really require a self defense response, call the police and charge him with harassment.

As an example to one's students you should show the proper "street response" in these situations. If you are attacked. defend as the law allows and call the authorities.

 

[RHD]

The proper way to handle this situation..

Ask them to leave, if they dont, call the police and charge them with trespass.

If they verbally threaten you or push/contact you in a manner that dosent really require a self defense response, call the police and charge him with harassment.

As an example to one students you should show the proper "street response" in these situations, if you are attacked defend as the law allows and call the authorities.

Despite all my usual blustering and bravado, I have to agree with you on this. As much as I would like to lay down a beating on some turd who challenges me in front of my class...The potential problems are waaaay to big: lawsuits, pissing someone off who comes back the next night and shoots you, and worst of all getting charged with aggrevated assault. :2pistols: Good post Tgace.

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

Yes, I in no way meant to incourage fighting with my post. I agree, with the best way to handle it, but I'm just curious if you guys had to deal with this type of situation. It seems we get 2 or 3 a year that come in with "something to prove" and I dont mean just in class. There is a difference between a martial artist who comes in and "friendly" challenges you and a nut case that comes in and threatens you. For Example:

Last week a guy came into the school during the day (we are open all day long) when there weren't any classes going on. The only two employees of the school (besides instructors) are my sifu (owner) and me. My sifu was out running some errands so it was just me there, no students or anything. As soon as the guy opens the door I can just tell something isn't right. First thing I notice is that he is deffinitely on something. Having worked so long as a paramedic in downtown Houston, I've seen enough of it. We have a front counter that opens into our back office, it provides about 2 feet of distance between he and I. Before I could get out of the back office and greet him, he says, "I'm just out of the military, what could this do for me"? Immediately I started what we refer to as "verbal kung fu". You sense the "mood" of the comminication and yield and move where you need to. He kept trying to catch me in a place where I would say he was wrong, or something where he could "prove himself". I just stayed with the generic explinations and invited him to class. He started geting really agressive and leaning over the counter at me. He was talking about how his grappling skills were too much for the military and for any human being. He was talking about how he could side step me, break my arm, and choke me out and kill me before I could do anything to him, especially with our "bug stuff". I just kept agreeing with him that he knew some "really lethal ****", and just kept bringing it back to our classes. It started getting pretty tireing after a while, he was there almost 20 minutes. I had to keep track of who was outside, if he had buddies hiding with him, what was on the front counter he could grab as a weapon, etc. I just decided I would stay behind the counter to difuse anything physical happeneing. There were a couple of times where I almost had to come outside the counter space, like when he went towards our display of staffs, I thought he was going to grab for one. Long story short, he finally realized I wasn't going to fight and just walked out of the place in the middle of one of his sentances. It was pretty scarry, I mean my adrenaline was pumping by the time he left. It was kind of funny, I had to go in the othe room and bust out some forms to release some of the tension. Come to find out this is the same guy that came up and tried to get physical with my sifu about a year ago. That never turns out well for them, if they lay a hand on him they usually just get a nice chin na and escort out of the building. He actually threw some punches and ended up on his back a few times, he had a few buddies with him at the time, but like most, they all just wanted out of the building once it got physical.

Now, on the flip side, my sigung used to have people come in and just spout a challenege and go after him. But I think that was pretty comonplace in the 60's and 70's. I was just woundering how often this type of thing happens. We tend to draw some real nutcases, you know the, "I'm on my way to the coutrhouse to register my hands as deadly weapons" kind of people. But the agressive ones can be pretty scary.

7sm

 

[TerryC]

I'm really dating myself here, and all my experience was in the Philippines, but there was a Filipino karate instructor from another gym that would come around a couple of times a month running his mouth. All the Filipinos in our gym knew him and tolerated him because they considered him "nuts". Once in around 1980, he came in while I was there working out, and asked my instructor if it would be ok to challenge me. I didn't really want to fight him in those circumstances because over there, if you embarrassed one of those guys in any way, they would get drunk later and be looking for revenge. Plus I wasn't too sure I could win!

Anyway, my instructor told me to go ahead, that nothing would come of it no matter who won. So we go at it. I've always said, that was the only time in any sparring/fighting that I ever did when I guess the "chi" took over. I just couldn't believe that absolutely every technique I threw was right on target. It almost seemed like slow motion. It seemed to me like it was all over in about 2 or 3 minutes, but my instructor later told me we fought for almost 15 minutes. I know I've never been more winded in my life, and at that time I was in pretty good shape. Our little match stopped when he just quit fighting and said he'd had enough.

Since we were right outside a military base in the Philippines, we had numerous American GI's stop by our gym, almost all of them would never admit to being less than some kind of master in whatever style. I actually witnessed a couple of these guys claim to have been training in the Shaolin Temple in China! :uhyeah: So we would usually just pair them off with one of the 18 year old 110 lb. Filipinos, who would proceed to kick the s**t out of them.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Now, on the flip side, my sigung used to have people come in and just spout a challenege and go after him. But I think that was pretty comonplace in the 60's and 70's

Yes it was. I can remember more than a few times when someone came into my instructors school and openly challanged him to see "What he had". I don't think it happens that much anymore, unless as you have said the person was on something or drunk.
As for those that come in to take a class or two and only want to spar, well, that still happens all to often in some places.

 

[7starmantis]

Yeah, if I am teaching and I have someone coming in being real disrespectful adn agressive, I invite them to do class and then we'll talk. Its really funny watching these tough guys get up and walk out of class! hehe Sometimes I'll just sit the class down in horse stance and wait for them to break If they last as long as I can then at least I know they have put in their time! Its rare that anyone gets rowdy, but it happens. Its good to have some type of practiced drill though in case something does happen.

7sm

 

[HammerFist]

7star, just read your post about your experience with the "I'm just out of the military, what could this do for me"? guy. Nice going man. I like your verbal kung fu. You handled that situation perfectly. Good job.

 

[grappling_mandala]

"Its good to have some type of practiced drill though in case something does happen"

I've had many very competitive folks who enjoy challenges come to our club.

I've also had some very maladjusted people come who simple want to "test themselves" or "their style" AGAINST other people or styles... these people are the ones I find myself really trying to catch onto early, and it's usually not hard, they usually have huge ego's and give off a "vibe".

Either or... all these people have a chance to 'test' themselves while we free spar which is 50% of our class time. We spend the first hour doing introductory technique and isolation drills, and the next hour rolling.

The single most important thing with anyone who has either intensity or a negative vibe is that I do not pair them up with novice class grapplers. Even though it's free roll time I will either roll with them myself, or pair them up with someone I know is experienced enough to handle them.

With simple intensity, these people are very receptive to "lowering the volume" of their intensity on someone who is more of a novice, etc... but the people with the vibe are to attached to "win and lose" to know how to train smart. Again, like previously stated in the thread, they either loose the tude when they get their butt handed to them, or they only come to one or two classes.

Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon

 

[RHD]

Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon

Nice to see you back mandala

Mike

 

[sifu Adams]

Good Job 7* that shows you are a true martial artist. Not to fight is harder than fighting sometimes. I have had a few in my classes. I have sparred a few wont-a-be-a martial artist that came in but only after I saw a few of there moves and realized at best the might have read a book on the arts. other tech. I have used: we have a Iron man form that we do. during this form for testing the instructor will kick, punch, and try to sweep you. your goal is to not brake the focus, tension, and breathing. you kick a black belt hard in front of them and they don't move will cause them to think before they start anything. I have had them get up and back out of the gym at that point. I have also grabed a swoard or knive and played with it while talking to them. As for the verble kung fu. I used that not to long ago at my work. I am a supervisor for GM and I had an employee get right up in my face after I asked him a question about a problem we were having with our trucks. If was funny because I started back to my office before I realised he was trying to intimadate me. I called him down to my office to talk to him. on the way down he kick thing, pushed thing, then slamed his hands on my desk and said "what". I have been around martial arts long enough to know by the look in his eye he was ready to throw a punch. I asked him to sit down three times before he did. then he said "I know you are in the tai chi, kung fu **** and I am not afriad of you!!" I looked at him and said " good because I don't wont you to be afriad of me, and I am not afriad of you eather" I told him " I will go toe to toe with any one in this plant at any given time, but that is not what we are here for, we are here to work, get paid, and go home!!!" he paused a long time. I think that is because I didn't raise my voice, I stayed calm but spoke frimly. after that he appolagized and we haven't had a problem since. I think what got him the most was he couldn't get me fired up. I never got up, I never raise my voice, I just used my Verble Kung fu with eye contact and it worked.

 

[archmagician]

Good Job Sifu Adams!

 

[thekuntawman]

hi
i am surprised how many people are talking like challenging is a bad thing. challenges, as long as you do it with respect for the teacher, the school and the art, is a healthy part of the martial arts. like it or not we are fighters and if you never encounter strangers and nervous situations, you will not be able to think well when the day comes for a real fight. a challenge is how we test our skill and our courage. many "good" martial artist lost a fight because he did not have the courage to fight well when he is nervous or scared. the challenge is one way your school can gain a reputation as a FIGHTING school, how your students can get confidence in what they are learning, and a way for you to put the word that your schools knows what they are doing on the street. if the person is not worthy of a match, like hes drunk or something, i can understand. but if a teacher is hoping to build his reputation or test his skill by offering a match to another teacher, i consider this a very noble and couragous thing to do. very few teachers believe in what they are teaching enough to PROVE they are superiour martial artist.

an no, comfortable situations, like friendly sparring sessions with friends, do not help you like a decent fight where your reputation and pride is on the line. it is because of challenges that we have these great styles we are learning! so you say that accepting it is immature and stupid? is that the opinion you have of the creator of most of the martial art styles around?

in my opinion a good school is one that is willing to accept any challenge as long as it is offered with respect and it is a real thing with the honest desiire to build a reputation or test his skill. it is a tradition i am sorry to see that is lost in the martial arts.

 

[sifu Adams]

thekuntawman, I could be wrong but I don't think we are unwilling to fight but if you look at the law's you might rethink your decition because if you are a black belt you, are a professional fighter and if someone comes and you hurt them you can be sued and it will cost you a lot of money. even the Creators never would fight for real unless they had no other option. I think that is what we are saying I don't have to prove my self to anyone. I know what i can do. why fight if I don't have to? the guy at my work he challanged me. should I have got in a fight lost my job, got sued, then went home and explaned to my wife and three girls, how great a fighter I am and that is was heathy. Part of being in the arts is learning to control yourself and your actions. If you can't do that ,then you shouldn't train anymore.

 

[RHD]

hi
i am surprised how many people are talking like challenging is a bad thing. challenges, as long as you do it with respect for the teacher, the school and the art, is a healthy part of the martial arts.

I totally agree in regard to pre-arranged matches. Fighting some lunatic who walks in the front door to yours school is stupid. Too many people carry guns and will use them to save face. Also, jail sucks.

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

I totally agree in regard to pre-arranged matches. Fighting some lunatic who walks in the front door to yours school is stupid. Too many people carry guns and will use them to save face. Also, jail sucks.

Mike

Exactly. My sigung has the "open" peacock feathers or whatever to show he accepts challenges in his school, but its not just some idiot who walks in off the street. Also, in most cases he will have to "fight" one of his students first.

7sm

 

[loki09789]

I totally agree in regard to pre-arranged matches. Fighting some lunatic who walks in the front door to yours school is stupid. Too many people carry guns and will use them to save face. Also, jail sucks.

Mike

Nothing wrong with some friendly competition between schools. Chances are, regardless of the stylistic differences, that if a regular schedule of matches are scheduled, the competitors will learn to neutralize each others tactics/techniques.

I think it is VERY important to be exposed to the various approaches to Marital arts so that you don't misread/misrespond to stimulus because it is 'new' to you.

Accepting walk in challenges is asking for trouble - and would probably weaken/destroy any legal suit you might want to file if the walk in turns out to be a serious problem - mutual combat, concentual participation....not a good thing.