CMA Grappling

[7starmantis]

I'm curious how many CMA-ist here spend time on groundwork, or "grappling". I'm not talking about standing grappling or Shuai Jiao, but pure on the ground type fighting. Working on getting taken down, avoiding takedowns, learning takedowns, and especially working on fighting while on the ground.

If you do train this way, is it within your kung fu school or style or do you supliment it with other training? Also, does your style make use of ground techniques? If not, do you think it is important?

7sm

 

[clfsean]

Yeah some. We use techniques we have from a mount or guard position & working in & out of them. Plus my sifu has some MMA in his background so we work off of that as well.

 

[D Dempsey]

In my school we do a lot of ground grappling. My teacher is really into Bjj and sambo. Actually I've been noticing a lot of CIMA teachers have been learning and encouraging ground fighting. We practice it all the time, its just like another part of class.
-Dave Dempsey-

 

[7starmantis]

Sean, what kind of techniques do you guys work on? Do you work on fighting and having them shoot in and take you down, or are they more stationary takedowns?

7sm

 

[Dronak]

No, we never did any ground fighting. The only thing I can recall in the way of grappling was what our teacher called "grabbing hands" techniques. But they seemed to be more along the lines of joint locks than wrestling-type grappling, most of them involving controlling the opponent's wrist. My one year in high school as a wrestler is probably the most training I've had in the grappling area and that's pretty old and rusty now. I have no idea if such grappling and ground fighting techniques would be taught later on though. It's possible. I'm fairly sure we only scratched the surface of what our art has to offer before our teacher moved back to his home country.

Is the ground fighting and grappling important? Well, it's kind of hard for me to say with my limited knowledge and experience. I suspect that how real life fights go may factor in to the answer as well. But generally speaking, in this context I would think that at least a basic knowledge of how to fight in all ranges would be beneficial. So if one or more of these ranges isn't covered, it may be worth supplementing your training with another art that will train those ranges. You can still have your specialty, but by rounding out your training and covering everything, you shouldn't really be caught off guard and should know how to deal with any situation that may arise. Just my thoughts.

 

[clfsean]

Sean, what kind of techniques do you guys work on? Do you work on fighting and having them shoot in and take you down, or are they more stationary takedowns?

7sm

7*... we normally approach the ground from a take down, ie a hook or shoot in & then if we don't stop that, we work it out off the ground. Every so often we'll start on the ground in a mount/guard situation & work our way out.

We try to work on stopping the take down as best we can, but we also go with the idea that there are tons & tons of good take down guys so we work on the idea of dealing with it once we're down because we didn't get the stop in.

 

[RHD]

We work against shoots and takedowns, but do not incluide any formal ground training. I encourage my students to seek out qualified instructors that have expertise in ground based grappling, but I don't have it myself, and won't pretend to teach it.

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

Is "grappling" or "groundwork" something you would consider important to a CMAist ?

7sm

 

[rox]

I think that we should avoid going to the ground, since we train 99% of our time standing up, and there are plenty of BJJ guys around wanting to get in a fight(at least in Brazil).

But even so, I believe a CMAist can do very well in the ground, because we will think on techniques that no BJJ guy would. For instance, atacks to the throat, or to the eyes. Preferably a tiger claw

 

[pekho]

Ground fighting is what snake style was made for.

Josh

 

[7starmantis]

I think that we should avoid going to the ground, since we train 99% of our time standing up, and there are plenty of BJJ guys around wanting to get in a fight(at least in Brazil).

But even so, I believe a CMAist can do very well in the ground, because we will think on techniques that no BJJ guy would. For instance, atacks to the throat, or to the eyes. Preferably a tiger claw

If you avoid going to the ground, wont you be unprepared for it when one of those BJJ guys takes you down?

7sm

 

[Darksoul]

-Its like anything else in the ma's, it needs to be practiced, drilled, and repeated often. Its the only way to make it second nature and prepare yourself for combat. That way, if you have to go to the ground, cause the BJJ takes out your legs, then you'll be able to deal with it, respond appropriately. Of course, if you can avoid it, by all means, do so, but be prepared just in case.


A---)

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

I'm curious how many CMA-ist here spend time on groundwork, or "grappling". I'm not talking about standing grappling or Shuai Jiao, but pure on the ground type fighting. Working on getting taken down, avoiding takedowns, learning takedowns, and especially working on fighting while on the ground.

If you do train this way, is it within your kung fu school or style or do you supliment it with other training? Also, does your style make use of ground techniques? If not, do you think it is important?

7sm

Well,

Like most chinese sifu that i know ,my sifu doesn't care much for groundfighting ,but he will do it to show us how applicable our techniques are on the ground also.

I've done some wrestling and have even learned a few subs ,but i'm by no stretch a ground guru. At the same point i rolled with some guys at a very well respected BJJ/MMA school and was only tapped by the instructor himself a BJJ black Belt. I was told that i had a very solid base and that i was much better than they expected coming from a CMA background.

Anyway....

I've rolled with my sifu who i honestly outweigh by close to 200lbs more like 180lbs but you get the point.

My sifu had no problems breaking any lock or sub that i rolled him into. His only training is entirely Black Tiger ,although 40yrs within Black Tiger. I must admit i was worried myself that CMA might be lacking when it comes to the ground ,but that was before we started working on the ground.

I have "NO DOUBT" in my mind if you know you techniques inside out "like we're all supposed to anyway" there's nothing you can't do standing up that you can't on the ground. We've worked from every position also mounted,half guard,etc.....

You just use short power in your strikes ,which is already a big part of most CMA styles anyway. I can't speak for every style ,but i'm sure there's more techniques to counter grappling in most styles than ppl know.

After all the Mongols(sp) were known for their grappling skillls.

jeff

 

[7starmantis]

Yeah, I also wanted to make the point that it is something that needs to be practiced to be effective as well. knowing how to work against a grappler and doing it are different things.

7sm

 

[rox]

Sorry, 7starmantis, I didn't mean to avoid training, just to avoid the ground in a fight.
I think we can train on the ground to defend against the ground fighters, but as Black Tiger Fist wrote, our own styles already have weapons that can be used in the ground; not the BJJ submissions themselves, but strikes to vital points and Chin na(that is mostly forbidden on BJJ).

What I meant by avoiding the ground is that we should train more against the takedowns than specifically on the ground. If we can NOT be taken to the ground, we are home.

(Sorry if I mistaken any preposition, I have trouble with 'in' and 'on' and 'at', etc)

 

[7starmantis]

Sorry, 7starmantis, I didn't mean to avoid training, just to avoid the ground in a fight.
I think we can train on the ground to defend against the ground fighters, but as Black Tiger Fist wrote, our own styles already have weapons that can be used in the ground; not the BJJ submissions themselves, but strikes to vital points and Chin na(that is mostly forbidden on BJJ).

What I meant by avoiding the ground is that we should train more against the takedowns than specifically on the ground. If we can NOT be taken to the ground, we are home.

(Sorry if I mistaken any preposition, I have trouble with 'in' and 'on' and 'at', etc)

I dont know, training against the takedown is good and needed, but its not possible to defend against every takedown, so you need to really put in some time on the ground, in my opinion. Also, a takedown doesn't have to be a BJJ type takedown, we do many, many takedowns, sweeps, throws, and such that would all end up having the opponent on the ground. Of course, most times I'm not going down with them, but there are many techniques that do involve going to the ground with them in the 7* system.

I agree, that most CMAist are going to avoid going to the ground, but there are going to be times when you get taken down, you should be ready for those times as well as ready to defend against the takedown.

7sm

 

[rox]

Yes, you're right, we might be took down. But being 'sweeped' is very much the end of the fight, it can always be followed by a strike to the neck or to a mount with a thousand punches. I love sweeps It's a shame I don't know them yet.

But I still think we should take a good emphasis on avoiding the takedowns, like common defenses. You can't always evade an atack, but you should train to do it very very often.

 

[pekho]

Rather than train to avoid being taken down, it is better to see a takedown attempt as an offer. Any takedown can be switched, and any time someone enters to throw, they can be thrown.

Josh

 

[7starmantis]

But being 'sweeped' is very much the end of the fight

Did you mean it is not the end of the fight?

7sm

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Like most chinese masters my sifu does not see the idea of being taken down by anyone!!

But, at the sametime he will work on these things with us ,so i can see what rox is trying to say. What everyone has to understand is that we are not our sifu's or sigung's ,we don't have 40yrs "LIVE" practice within our arts.

My sifu has fought against many ppl and many styles ,he sought out my sigung for the sole purpose to fight. Not every sifu or master has learned that way or was interested in learning for that purpose.

My sifu was forced by his sifu to learn Black Tiger forms and weapons. In his eyes my sifu had no need for forms or weapons ,but as he learned everything he was able to see why they were needed.

When we train Black Tiger with my sifu it's strickly from a fighting/self defense point of view. If you're looking to learn forms? You will eventually but it will take yrs to learn each form because we drill each and every technique from every angle possiable.

But many masters have that skill where they can avoid being taken down ,but that takes many yrs of "live" practice. They can see from your body aliginment what your intentions are.

jeff