Scenario sparring?

Oni_Kadaki

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A few years back, when I was changing duty stations and, as a result, leaving my dojo, my Shorin-Ryu Karate Sensei arranged a special send off. Specifically, he had us get into minimum sparring gear (mouthguards, cups, and gloves), and he had me stand in the center of the room and close my eyes. He instructed my colleagues to attack me as they saw fit. The result was that I was forced to defend myself against a variety of grabs and holds with no prior warning. It was a pretty awesome exercise.

Fast-forward to the present day, my Chito-Ryu Karate Sensei was discussing kumite. He explained that we do it infrequently because, while it is a challenge and helps build some good habits, the artificial nature of it also causes us to build some habits that are bad in an actual self defense situation. It occurred to me that my sendoff from my Shorin-Ryu school seems like a good way to bridge the gap, allowing free fighting with resistance, but without the artificiality of squaring off like one would in the octagon.

Thoughts?
 

JowGaWolf

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All of the fights I've been in started as a conflict and then squared off. I haven't been attacked from out of no where yet, and that could be due to my habit of having watchful eyes.
 

JowGaWolf

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what other types of eyes are there?
eyes that only see a mobile phone and nothing else. lustful eyes that only see something sexually attractive. Racists eyes, eyes that see things only in the context of race vs race. Criminal eyes. eyes that only look for what they can steal. I can continue if you still need examples

When I speak of "watchful eyes" I speak of those who tend to take in a much larger picture. Those are the ones who often have a natural tendency to protect be it a father out with the family and eyes watch with the purpose of "keeping the family safe" or a gang member looking to be aware of rivals, the police, and the well being of the game.

Watchful eyes tend to be aware of more things than those that focus on one thing.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Not watchful eyes, in so many ways. A blind man would have more awareness
 

jobo

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eyes that only see a mobile phone and nothing else. lustful eyes that only see something sexually attractive. Racists eyes, eyes that see things only in the context of race vs race. Criminal eyes. eyes that only look for what they can steal. I can continue if you still need examples

When I speak of "watchful eyes" I speak of those who tend to take in a much larger picture. Those are the ones who often have a natural tendency to protect be it a father out with the family and eyes watch with the purpose of "keeping the family safe" or a gang member looking to be aware of rivals, the police, and the well being of the game.

Watchful eyes tend to be aware of more things than those that focus on one thing.
all that types of eyes appear to be watching things !that would make them eer watchful
 

Buka

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I liked training my guys with all kinds of sparring….
And yes, there are certain drills that are questionable here, safety wise. But nobody ever got any more lumps than they did with our regular sparring. But they were a hell of a lot more fun.

A round of kickboxing at a time. Various length rounds, sometimes ten minutes.

Two on one.

Bull in the ring.

All hands.

All feet.

Subtraction Game - two guys do a round, we all point to who we thought won the round, he stays up there, new fighter steps in. New fighter picks one leg of the defending champ. He cannot use that leg for this next round. We point to the winner, new guy comes up. If the defending champ has won...the new guy picks one hand he cannot use. So that next round he only has one arm and one leg to strike with. He can block (sometimes sweep, sometimes not)

If the champ wins yet again he can no longer use the other leg. Now he can only strike with one hand. You might think that’s silly, but what it forces the fighter to do is really move, use faster footwork, escape with faster and better head movement, really STICK that jab or hook. And it’s incredibly tiring and good for endurance.

Sparing outside, in rain, in snow, on ice (which is the stupidest thing we’ve ever done….come downs to a grapple, and that sucks just as much because it’s really, really cold, especially on the hands and the back)
But, hey, we lived in New England, we got a lot of snow and ice and cold.

Under a strobe light. Insanely fun. A lot of kicks banging shins, a lot of bloody noses, a lot of hooting and hollering by the people awaiting their turn.

Tag teams.

Tag teams by just one side.

Unfortunately, I could never teach anybody how to defend themselves on stairs. I never could figure it out, or how to safely try. I could not teach, nor do, sparing in water (pool, beach etc)

I sucked in the dark, too.
 

isshinryuronin

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I liked training my guys with all kinds of sparring….
And yes, there are certain drills that are questionable here, safety wise. But nobody ever got any more lumps than they did with our regular sparring. But they were a hell of a lot more fun.

A round of kickboxing at a time. Various length rounds, sometimes ten minutes.

Two on one.

Bull in the ring.

All hands.

All feet.

Subtraction Game - two guys do a round, we all point to who we thought won the round, he stays up there, new fighter steps in. New fighter picks one leg of the defending champ. He cannot use that leg for this next round. We point to the winner, new guy comes up. If the defending champ has won...the new guy picks one hand he cannot use. So that next round he only has one arm and one leg to strike with. He can block (sometimes sweep, sometimes not)

If the champ wins yet again he can no longer use the other leg. Now he can only strike with one hand. You might think that’s silly, but what it forces the fighter to do is really move, use faster footwork, escape with faster and better head movement, really STICK that jab or hook. And it’s incredibly tiring and good for endurance.

Sparing outside, in rain, in snow, on ice (which is the stupidest thing we’ve ever done….come downs to a grapple, and that sucks just as much because it’s really, really cold, especially on the hands and the back)
But, hey, we lived in New England, we got a lot of snow and ice and cold.

Under a strobe light. Insanely fun. A lot of kicks banging shins, a lot of bloody noses, a lot of hooting and hollering by the people awaiting their turn.

Tag teams.

Tag teams by just one side.

Unfortunately, I could never teach anybody how to defend themselves on stairs. I never could figure it out, or how to safely try. I could not teach, nor do, sparing in water (pool, beach etc)

I sucked in the dark, too.

We did many of the same things back in the day. It was certainly fun to get roughed up in novel ways. We practiced in the alley and up in the hills. Relying on just feet or just one side was effective in teaching how to maximize performance within the given parameters. Can you fight one handed? With practice, aggressiveness and good footwork/body motion - better than one would think! It actually makes you think how to adapt to this new situation and explore possibilities. Blindfolded was a tough one. The only strategies that worked were clinching or going so berserk no one wanted to close on you. Most opted for the second to everyone's delight.

The more unique (even unrealistic) situations, limitations or environments you practice MA in, the more you are prepared for the unpredictable situation that sooner or later will jump out at you. Not that you have developed any great particular skill, but I think it develops a broader skill of not freaking out in unique situations and learning to cope even if you are at a disadvantage.
 
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Buka

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We did many of the same things back in the day. It was certainly fun to get roughed up in novel ways. We practiced in the alley and up in the hills. Relying on just feet or just one side was effective in teaching how to maximize performance within the given parameters. Can you fight one handed? With practice, aggressiveness and good footwork/body motion - better than one would think! It actually makes you think how to adapt to this new situation and explore possibilities. Blindfolded was a tough one. The only strategies that worked were clinching or going so berserk no one wanted to close on you. Most opted for the second to everyone's delight.

The more unique (even unrealistic) situations, limitations or environments you practice MA in, the more you are prepared for the unpredictable situation that sooner or later will jump out at you. Not that you have developed any great particular skill, but I think it develops a broader skill of not freaking out in unique situations and learning to cope even if you are at a disadvantage.

The not freaking out is what it’s all about, yes.

Unfortunately, I still would freak out in water. Fortunately, I don’t go into the water, ever. I would never go near water unless I was with my wife, who seems to be part fish and could save anyone who was going under. The best I could do would be to drown with them.

I can’t fight well inside a car either. And I’ve trained it more than a few times.

Hills, at least steep ones, really screw me up.

Here’s a question, for anyone really. If Kata is part of your training regime, have you done any kata on a hill? How bad does that mess you up? I imagine it might depend on which way you face to start, yes?

For grapplers, a hill must be kind of nuts I imagine. Again, probably depends on position maybe.

For strikers - doesn’t heavy winter clothing really suck? To me, it makes everything shorter. But not evenly. My footwork is screwed slightly less than my hand techniques, which messes up everything, big picture wise.

Not enough hours in the day, not enough days in a life. But we try.
 

Rat

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Not watchful eyes, in so many ways. A blind man would have more awareness

to be fair, they blend in quite well, and if you arent expecting one in your enviroment/have never seen one its not programmed into you. Some people dont think foxes go into cities etc for example.
 

jobo

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to be fair, they blend in quite well, and if you arent expecting one in your enviroment/have never seen one its not programmed into you. Some people dont think foxes go into cities etc for example.
yes it a design feature, how quickly people can perceive, process and react to totally unexpected danger is intresting, I'd be stood thinking a tiger! wtf, I'm seeing things,

people seem to regularly fall into quite obvious holes or walk in to obstructions on a regular route that wernt there yesterday, holes or obstructions that they may well have seen on a strange route
 

Rat

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Now replying to the actual OP. As far as i recall, Krav maga tends to start you off with your eyes shut, so you close your eyes in what ever posture you want to emulate someone shoves you from where ever and you respond. Granted it scales up into what you described, but i dont know if they close eyes for the circle of death or they have them open to encourage scanning. Id imagine they arent the only ones to do this or come up with it, so as long as you punish people for mistake, so are wearing armour so they can hit you, seems decent enough.

the main issue with it is, they need armour, saw a video on the death circle for begginers in krav maga and someone could wack the person round the head with their stick but because they wernt wearing armour they just waited. Seen a drill in a rory miller book of effectively having people beat the **** out of you, so as long as you stay standing you dont get stomped by the swarm. For a time duration, i think up to 5 minuetes. Granted he doesnt dictate it as a must, and says to impliment what ever rules you morally/legally need to.(as is the norm here) dont take that as a from him wording its just a paraphrase of the drill i saw.

I cant see why that cant work, or be impliment or variations of it in a currcilium, other places do it more often.


Addednum: The royal marine demo team sort of does the circle thing, but since its demos its not realstic, the signal is normally they make a sound or something, like someone picking up a stick for the stick routine would hit it on the ground as a audio cue.
 

dvcochran

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Not watchful eyes, in so many ways. A blind man would have more awareness
No, that is 100% a "stupid is as stupid does" moment. Had nothing to do with a persons eyes. If we must coin a MA moniker, she forgot or never used situational awareness; possibly her irrational anger blinded her to the Very present danger.

Those tigers must have been hungry. The emphasis on were.
 

dvcochran

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A few years back, when I was changing duty stations and, as a result, leaving my dojo, my Shorin-Ryu Karate Sensei arranged a special send off. Specifically, he had us get into minimum sparring gear (mouthguards, cups, and gloves), and he had me stand in the center of the room and close my eyes. He instructed my colleagues to attack me as they saw fit. The result was that I was forced to defend myself against a variety of grabs and holds with no prior warning. It was a pretty awesome exercise.

Fast-forward to the present day, my Chito-Ryu Karate Sensei was discussing kumite. He explained that we do it infrequently because, while it is a challenge and helps build some good habits, the artificial nature of it also causes us to build some habits that are bad in an actual self defense situation. It occurred to me that my sendoff from my Shorin-Ryu school seems like a good way to bridge the gap, allowing free fighting with resistance, but without the artificiality of squaring off like one would in the octagon.

Thoughts?
Great post.

One thing I did in advanced classes was a modified type of round robin.
While doing static warmup/stretching I would hand out a list of 10 different attacks/scenarios and we would discuss them at length, talking about various counters and appropriate attacks. Then we would circle up into groups of 11 (one person in the middle). Each person knew their number but we lined up asynchronously so you never knew where the attack was coming from. We would usually work an attack/number for a max of 1 minute then move on. If someone was having difficulty with a counter/attack we would take extra time. No hesitancy in attack and a brisk pace.

This can go on for as long as you wish. We had several sessions that lasted longer than 8 hours.
Nothing like driving home at 2 in the morning after one of these sessions. Good times.
 
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