Sanuces Ryu Jiu-Jitsu?

[WaterGal]

There are a lot of very knowledgeable people on this site, so I was hoping someone could tell me a bit about this style. A friend of mine is thinking about sending her kid to a school that teaches it. I'd only vaguely heard of the style before, and the internet seems pretty light on information about it. I did find some information about the purported history of it, but very little info about what they actually teach or the credentials of Moses Powell and Professor Vee.

Normally, I'd be completely in the "go see what they do" crowd (like on the Doshinkan thread, hah), but the school in question has neither a website nor an e-mail address. I can't even go visit, because it's not a full-time school and they only have classes while I'm working.

 

[Chris Parker]

It's really going to be determined by what they're after, honestly…. although I will say that there are many aspects of the history, methodology, attitude, and more that has me have little time for them...

 

[WaterGal]

Well, my friend's kid just wants to "do karate" (he's in single digits), and she wants a place that's near her house. The nearest places to her are the Sanuces Ryu place, a local McDojo chain that I know is not very good, and a franchise place whose corporate website advertises that you don't need any martial arts experience to start one of their schools.

Can you elaborate on their methodology, attitude, etc?

 

[JR 137]

In this day and age of the internet, you'd think websites would be a good indication of what's going on in a dojo. I think MA websites are probably the worst.

They either seem McDojo or something thrown together. If I based where I train on a website, I wouldn't train anywhere. Seriously. My current and former dojos' websites suck, with my former Sensei's website being possibly the worst I've seen. No way I'd visit his school if that was all I saw; grammatical errors everywhere, sentences where if I didn't know what he was trying to say I'd have no clue, mainly pics of kids and stereotypically had posed photos, etc. If someone here posted a link asking my if they should go to it, most would say to stay away. I'd do the same if I didn't know him.

I find most good MA teachers aren't great marketers and website creators. My current dojo's isn't very good because it's bare minimum - a basically cut/paste from our organization's headquarters site, profiles of the 3 main instructors, schedule, prices, and a small pic gallery. I guess it's good because he didn't try to make it something he shouldn't.

Don't judge a dojo by its website. Far too many good teachers who aren't computer people, and far too many great marketers who aren't good teachers IMO.

My organization's headquarters dojo is the only one I think has a good website and great dojo. The website is good, not great IMO...

The World Seido Karate Organization in New York City

 

[jks9199]

Well, my friend's kid just wants to "do karate" (he's in single digits), and she wants a place that's near her house. The nearest places to her are the Sanuces Ryu place, a local McDojo chain that I know is not very good, and a franchise place whose corporate website advertises that you don't need any martial arts experience to start one of their schools.

Can you elaborate on their methodology, attitude, etc?

At that age -- visit the schools. Pick the one with a training atmosphere that you like for the kid. The style is not the key -- it's the atmosphere and structure and how they deal with kids. Honestly -- depending on who is running it, that franchise set up (I'm guessing it might be Premier Martial Arts) can have a very good atmosphere for kids.

(And, truth be told, there's nothing that says a successful school owner actually has to be a martial artist themselves, so long as they hire a qualified staff to teach.)

 

[WaterGal]

At that age -- visit the schools. Pick the one with a training atmosphere that you like for the kid. The style is not the key -- it's the atmosphere and structure and how they deal with kids. Honestly -- depending on who is running it, that franchise set up (I'm guessing it might be Premier Martial Arts) can have a very good atmosphere for kids.

(And, truth be told, there's nothing that says a successful school owner actually has to be a martial artist themselves, so long as they hire a qualified staff to teach.)

Well, it's not my kid, it's a friend's kid, she just doesn't know much about martial arts so she asked me.

I can't go to the Sanuces Ryu place because of scheduling, which is why I'm asking about it here.

I've worked with people who used to train at a Local Chain McDojo place, and seen demos they've put on, so the quality of what they do is a known quantity. It sounds like the kids have fun and get some exercise and learn something about martial arts, but they generally do nothing but kata, kicking the air, and playing games like "ninja dodgeball".

The franchise place is a Pro Martial Arts location. I think they have a similar business model to Premiere, though. A while back, they had a help wanted ad posted in my gym, looking for a new instructor; they wanted someone with at least a first dan in some style. Not any specific style, mind you - as long as somebody somewhere gave you a black belt, that was good enough for them.

I think I'll tell her to avoid the "Pro" place, and check out Local Chain (never thought I'd say that...) and the Sanuces place and see what her kid likes better.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, my friend's kid just wants to "do karate" (he's in single digits), and she wants a place that's near her house. The nearest places to her are the Sanuces Ryu place, a local McDojo chain that I know is not very good, and a franchise place whose corporate website advertises that you don't need any martial arts experience to start one of their schools.

Frankly, a kid will probably be best off in more of the "McDojo" type school… after all, unless we're talking a seriously intent child, most of this is really just an activity to get him out of the house and be active…

Can you elaborate on their methodology, attitude, etc?

Okay…

Sanuces Ryu is the creation of Moses Powell, one of the early African American martial pioneers in the US… except, of course, that many of such persons, including Moses Powell, weren't really that well schooled, took many of their ideas from overt creativity (rather than combative principles, application, reality, or anything similar), movie-style tropes (these systems were created among the martial art movie craze of the 60's and 70's), using as many cliches and trappings of what they thought martial arts were as they could, using overly elaborate rituals, bizarre, odd clothing choices, and more which show more and more that there was little legitimate basis to their ideas of being anything close to the Japanese arts they claim to be descended from.

The technical methods err towards over-reaction, overkill, and a lack of realism. Most techniques involve a single attack, which is then held in place as the practitioner does a series of responses, each more unrealistic than the last, with no sense of combative practicality whatsoever… tying up someone who is just standing there waiting for you to do something rarely impresses me, unless you can give me practical reasons why it happens that way (and even then, the cases are rare and far-between).

Most of all, though, like many of the similar (and related, if not directly, at least spiritually) systems of the time, Moses Powell's Sanuces Ryu has been used as a propaganda basis for many of the more extreme civil rights groups, which has remained a part of the attitude and rhetoric to this day. Now, I have no issue with the civil rights movement… frankly, I'm still appalled that it was necessary in the first place… and I'd have just as much (more, really) of an issue if it was used as propaganda for the extreme white supremacy groups… but this has, I feel, not been a real positive for the art itself. It makes the entire system one based on a sense of pride and ego… which makes all the techniques presented being about power… which is never a good thing.

So, all in all, we have a system given to overt, overkill methods, with little practicality in their application, in a system designed around aping movies from the 60's and 70's, and with a highly skewed propaganda push from the Black Panthers movement, with Farrakhan (leader of the Nation of Islam) being often cited as a strong influence. Putting a kid into that environment? Not sure I'd do that…

Well, it's not my kid, it's a friend's kid, she just doesn't know much about martial arts so she asked me.

Okay.

I can't go to the Sanuces Ryu place because of scheduling, which is why I'm asking about it here.

For your information, here are a couple of clips of them.

There's a lot more, and I'll let you make up your own mind as to what you see, but, to me, this is far from anything I find impressive…

I've worked with people who used to train at a Local Chain McDojo place, and seen demos they've put on, so the quality of what they do is a known quantity. It sounds like the kids have fun and get some exercise and learn something about martial arts, but they generally do nothing but kata, kicking the air, and playing games like "ninja dodgeball".

Which, frankly, is pretty ideal for kids… one thing, though, why would "nothing but kata…" be a negative?

The franchise place is a Pro Martial Arts location. I think they have a similar business model to Premiere, though. A while back, they had a help wanted ad posted in my gym, looking for a new instructor; they wanted someone with at least a first dan in some style. Not any specific style, mind you - as long as somebody somewhere gave you a black belt, that was good enough for them.

It's for a kid. I'm not overly fussed over the business model, nor am I expecting a kid to get real, serious training… really, what I might hope is that the kid will get some interest in martial arts that can be put towards more serious study later… to that end, the only real issue is if the kid gets the impression that the way they're being taught is the only way martial arts are, and therefore stays there… but, in the end, if they're happy, they're happy… and, bluntly, there are plenty of adult practitioners (even here on the forums) who can't see past the tiny area of their own study anyway…

I think I'll tell her to avoid the "Pro" place, and check out Local Chain (never thought I'd say that...) and the Sanuces place and see what her kid likes better.

The only real factors are the cost (for the parents), the suitability for the kids and parents schedules (including travel to and from the school, so location is important), and whether or not the kid enjoys themselves there. To that end, the McDojo or the Pro school are potentially the better ones… I will ask, though, exactly how old the kid is. You mentioned "single digits"… but there's a real world of difference between a 4 year old and a 9 year old…

 

[WaterGal]

Sanuces Ryu is the creation of Moses Powell, one of the early African American martial pioneers in the US… except, of course, that many of such persons, including Moses Powell, weren't really that well schooled, took many of their ideas from overt creativity (rather than combative principles, application, reality, or anything similar), movie-style tropes (these systems were created among the martial art movie craze of the 60's and 70's), using as many cliches and trappings of what they thought martial arts were as they could, using overly elaborate rituals, bizarre, odd clothing choices, and more which show more and more that there was little legitimate basis to their ideas of being anything close to the Japanese arts they claim to be descended from.

The technical methods err towards over-reaction, overkill, and a lack of realism. Most techniques involve a single attack, which is then held in place as the practitioner does a series of responses, each more unrealistic than the last, with no sense of combative practicality whatsoever… tying up someone who is just standing there waiting for you to do something rarely impresses me, unless you can give me practical reasons why it happens that way (and even then, the cases are rare and far-between).

Thank you! That's very informative and exactly what I was looking for. The little information I'd found online did leave me wondering about the credentials of the people involved. The only info I found about what they actually do is from a discussion thread of people on Bullshido talking about whether Sanuces Ryu and related systems were effective or not, and those guys seemed to have mostly negative opinions, but people on that site tend to have a general bias against non-MMA styles so I wasn't sure how much credence to give that. From the things I've seen you post, you seem very knowledgeable, so I respect your opinion and knowledge a lot more than that.

Most of all, though, like many of the similar (and related, if not directly, at least spiritually) systems of the time, Moses Powell's Sanuces Ryu has been used as a propaganda basis for many of the more extreme civil rights groups, which has remained a part of the attitude and rhetoric to this day. Now, I have no issue with the civil rights movement… frankly, I'm still appalled that it was necessary in the first place… and I'd have just as much (more, really) of an issue if it was used as propaganda for the extreme white supremacy groups… but this has, I feel, not been a real positive for the art itself. It makes the entire system one based on a sense of pride and ego… which makes all the techniques presented being about power… which is never a good thing.

I don't actually have a huge problem with the style having historical ties to the Black Power movement, honestly, though I do respect your opinion. Some of the Korean guys I've trained under/with in the 21st century were fairly racist towards black people, so I find it completely unsurprising if black folks in the 60s were not made welcome to train at legit places and felt the need to create their own separate black martial arts community, even if the actual training they were doing was not great. And mythologizing an art to....create or recreate your group's culture, and to build up cultural pride..... is I think understandable when your culture's been suppressed for a very long time, and is hardly unique to African-Americans. I mean, look at what the Koreans did after the Japanese occupation ended, and the stories people tell about the "history" of TKD etc.

Also, whoever this teacher is has some serious balls, because the town my friend lives in had it's last Klan rally about 10 years ago.

 

[WaterGal]

Which, frankly, is pretty ideal for kids… one thing, though, why would "nothing but kata…" be a negative?



It's for a kid. I'm not overly fussed over the business model, nor am I expecting a kid to get real, serious training… really, what I might hope is that the kid will get some interest in martial arts that can be put towards more serious study later… to that end, the only real issue is if the kid gets the impression that the way they're being taught is the only way martial arts are, and therefore stays there… but, in the end, if they're happy, they're happy… and, bluntly, there are plenty of adult practitioners (even here on the forums) who can't see past the tiny area of their own study anyway…

I have Strong Feelings about places that don't do sparring or heavy bag training, that don't teach students very much or hold them to high standards, etc. Kids can handle that stuff, and I think if you're going to do something, do it well. Challenge your students, give them a good workout, make sure they can do good techniques.

The students I've worked with who transferred from Local Chain or other similar places (they've been around for a while, so some of their people have broken off to found similar schools) had a really rough time making the transition because, to be polite, their training and instructors had given them a false overconfidence about their skill level.

 

[WaterGal]

For your information, here are a couple of clips of them.

There's a lot more, and I'll let you make up your own mind as to what you see, but, to me, this is far from anything I find impressive…

Hmmmm, yeah. Most of these techniques don't look very effective or realistic, and/or relied overly much on muscling through the technique rather than actually using leverage. I did love the guy in the first video whose seated defense was to stand up and hit the attacker with his chair, though - that seemed like the best one of the bunch, lol.

 

[Ironbear24]

is from a discussion thread of people on Bullshido

Bullshido is the worst place to find anything unless you want to see keyboard warriors Duke it out. They have only negative opinions about anything and everything.

 

[Kickboxer101]

I have Strong Feelings about places that don't do sparring or heavy bag training, that don't teach students very much or hold them to high standards, etc. Kids can handle that stuff, and I think if you're going to do something, do it well. Challenge your students, give them a good workout, make sure they can do good techniques.

The students I've worked with who transferred from Local Chain or other similar places (they've been around for a while, so some of their people have broken off to found similar schools) had a really rough time making the transition because, to be polite, their training and instructors had given them a false overconfidence about their skill level.

Yeah but it's not about you it's about what's best for a kid to enjoy themselves no ones asking you to train there

 

[Mephisto]

I think Chris summed up Sanuces well. I've found the same to be true. All I've seen is "super deadly" compliant training. The group seems cultish in an unhealthy way. I've heard their guys can actually fight but their system is not what they claim it is.

Bullshido is the worst place to find anything unless you want to see keyboard warriors Duke it out. They have only negative opinions about anything and everything.

"They only have negative opinions about anything and everything." I think that's an obvious overstatement. Bullshido is a great resource and the impression that they hate everything that's not mma is incorrect. Most of their mods have traditional style backgrounds and continue to teach and train traditional styles. There's certainly a preference for mma and related styles among many of the members there but if you actualky talk to the regular posters and keep an open mind you'll learn what they really are into is alive training and systems that spar and produce competant fighters. Imo bullshido is a great resource and they do a good jod of fraud busting. People their will tell it like it is and won't sugar coat things. It's a good way to learn.

 

[Ironbear24]

I think Chris summed up Sanuces well. I've found the same to be true. All I've seen is "super deadly" compliant training. The group seems cultish in an unhealthy way. I've heard their guys can actually fight but their system is not what they claim it is.


"They only have negative opinions about anything and everything." I think that's an obvious overstatement. Bullshido is a great resource and the impression that they hate everything that's not mma is incorrect. Most of their mods have traditional style backgrounds and continue to teach and train traditional styles. There's certainly a preference for mma and related styles among many of the members there but if you actualky talk to the regular posters and keep an open mind you'll learn what they really are into is alive training and systems that spar and produce competant fighters. Imo bullshido is a great resource and they do a good jod of fraud busting. People their will tell it like it is and won't sugar coat things. It's a good way to learn.

There is a difference between being honest and not sugar coating to being just downright an *******. From what I seen if you aren't training in something in mma, (or a style that has been seen in it) you get called every name in the book and treated rudely in general.

Then there is the hilarity of people their getting into arguments and then challenging eachother to fight, the majority of the time said fight never even happens. If you had a good experience with bullshido that's great but in my opinion is rather be here or martial arts planet.

 

[Chris Parker]

Thank you! That's very informative and exactly what I was looking for. The little information I'd found online did leave me wondering about the credentials of the people involved. The only info I found about what they actually do is from a discussion thread of people on Bullshido talking about whether Sanuces Ryu and related systems were effective or not, and those guys seemed to have mostly negative opinions, but people on that site tend to have a general bias against non-MMA styles so I wasn't sure how much credence to give that. From the things I've seen you post, you seem very knowledgeable, so I respect your opinion and knowledge a lot more than that.

No problem. Sorry taking so long getting back to this.

I don't actually have a huge problem with the style having historical ties to the Black Power movement, honestly, though I do respect your opinion. Some of the Korean guys I've trained under/with in the 21st century were fairly racist towards black people, so I find it completely unsurprising if black folks in the 60s were not made welcome to train at legit places and felt the need to create their own separate black martial arts community, even if the actual training they were doing was not great. And mythologizing an art to....create or recreate your group's culture, and to build up cultural pride..... is I think understandable when your culture's been suppressed for a very long time, and is hardly unique to African-Americans. I mean, look at what the Koreans did after the Japanese occupation ended, and the stories people tell about the "history" of TKD etc.

I get that, and, to be clear, my issue is more about the culture of indoctrination, rather than any particular political skew.

There's a clip doing the rounds on Facebook of a young kid in a similarly oriented school throwing some fairly ordinary punches (well, he's 9 years old, and is a white belt… so nothing against him there) in front of the group while two adults (one the teacher, another a senior) are watching him. The teacher is standing, the senior in front of the child, holding a re-breakable board. As the kid continues his punches in the air, the kneeling senior puts the board up, getting him to strike it and attempt a break.

It doesn't work.

The kids hand hits the board, and, partially because he was scared/nervous, partly because he was pulling the hits in the first place, the board doesn't break. Bravely, the kid keeps his punching routine going. This repeats a few times, at which point the instructor starts giving advice about breaking the board (which is, frankly, rather terrible… "you're not punching hard enough… you have to punch harder… when you feel the pain, you need to hit harder… you feel pain? Shake it off…" and so on), and the kid continues to struggle with the feat. As you might expect, the pain and frustration lead the kid to start crying. The teacher chooses to focus on this, asking the kid why he's crying, and telling him that it's okay to cry (yep), and turned it into a talk about being a black man in society, gaining strength from Yashuah (their particular religious iconography has Hebrew terminology for Christian ideals and concepts to make it more "authentic"), and so on.

I have nothing against the religious ideals, nor against the idea of having pride in yourself, your culture, and so on… but the usage of martial arts schools to indoctrinate an "us against them" mentality based on race lines or anything else? Yeah… I'm not so fond of that…

Also, whoever this teacher is has some serious balls, because the town my friend lives in had it's last Klan rally about 10 years ago.

Honestly, it doesn't surprise me at all… in fact, I'd almost have predicted it. Such groups tend to be a reaction to their surroundings, after all.

I have Strong Feelings about places that don't do sparring or heavy bag training, that don't teach students very much or hold them to high standards, etc. Kids can handle that stuff, and I think if you're going to do something, do it well. Challenge your students, give them a good workout, make sure they can do good techniques.

Eh, personally, sparring is almost non-existent in what I do, so I'm not fussed about that… but again, it's more about what the kid will be interested in than anything else (save the childs well being, of course).

The students I've worked with who transferred from Local Chain or other similar places (they've been around for a while, so some of their people have broken off to found similar schools) had a really rough time making the transition because, to be polite, their training and instructors had given them a false overconfidence about their skill level.

Fair enough.

Hmmmm, yeah. Most of these techniques don't look very effective or realistic, and/or relied overly much on muscling through the technique rather than actually using leverage. I did love the guy in the first video whose seated defense was to stand up and hit the attacker with his chair, though - that seemed like the best one of the bunch, lol.

Ha, yeah, there are a few issues in there… quite often, such schools come across to me as being representative of what the founder (and instructors) think martial arts are like, rather than them being based in the actual reality of combat and genuine (legitimate) arts that they're aping.

 

[deflect->atemi]

such schools come across to me as being representative of what the founder (and instructors) think martial arts are like

If you're referring to one of Powell's teachers, Florendo Visitacion/Professor V, then what do you think Vee-Jitsu represented in its inception? What else could be gleaned from these exhibition and promo videos?

Let me ask you this, have you practiced Sanuces or met a practitioner of the art? Have you been to Brooklyn and its rough areas? I think local urban culture does play a role in formulating defense strategies (why did the Samurai fight a particular way?).

 

[Steve]

There are a lot of very knowledgeable people on this site, so I was hoping someone could tell me a bit about this style. A friend of mine is thinking about sending her kid to a school that teaches it. I'd only vaguely heard of the style before, and the internet seems pretty light on information about it. I did find some information about the purported history of it, but very little info about what they actually teach or the credentials of Moses Powell and Professor Vee.

Normally, I'd be completely in the "go see what they do" crowd (like on the Doshinkan thread, hah), but the school in question has neither a website nor an e-mail address. I can't even go visit, because it's not a full-time school and they only have classes while I'm working.

I'd be interested to know if anyone on this forum has direct, first hand knowledge of this style. A lot of information is on the web, but I think we all know how misleading that can be.

 

[deflect->atemi]

A lot of information is on the web, but I think we all know how misleading that can be.

There is a lot of conjecture on the net. Social media muddies the water.

From what I've heard from my instructor, many of Powell's students and those taught by said students have the potential to teach the masses (in other words, make the art more approachable to the uninitiated). However, egoism makes them hesitant (but there are a few I saw on YT that are teaching, so not all of them can be painted with the same brush).

To the OP, according to my instructor, the best schools are 'the ones with worn out mats' from a lot of wear and tear and use a vetting process to see if the student is capable of following instructions.

 

[deflect->atemi]

I think I'll tell her to avoid the "Pro" place, and check out Local Chain (never thought I'd say that...) and the Sanuces place and see what her kid likes better.

If this "Pro" place is anything like the TKD dojang in my neck of woods- Hummer H2 with the school's logo, cafe, sauna, and rock climbing wall-- then your friend may have to look else where. Money talks, BS walks.

 

[Steve]

A rock climbing wall would be great.