Ryu

[Aegis]

I noticed that RyuShiKan mentioned that a style needs to have been around for a few years in order to legitimately be known as a "Ryu". My question is this: in the context used by most martial art names (for example, Wado-ryu karate) what does the word Ryu actually mean?

In addition, though this has not been brought up by anyone to my knowledge, what does the word "Kan" mean, and how does it differ to the word ryu (obviously not just in pronunciation). I'd always thought that the two words were more or less interchangable, but then I'm not exactly much good at Japanese. In fact, that's an understatement: I can barely speak a word!

Thanks in advance.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Aegis
I noticed that RyuShiKan mentioned that a style needs to have been around for a few years in order to legitimately be known as a "Ryu".

That wasn't me but rather Chufeng that mentioned the "ryu" topic in another thread.

 

[KennethKu]

"Kan" in Kanji (Chinese character) means club, association. If it means something else specific to Karate, then I wouldn't know.

 

[Aegis]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
That wasn't me but rather Chufeng that mentioned the "ryu" topic in another thread.

Sorry, my mistake.

 

[James Kovacich]

I was told it was another name for a school like the Kai.

My brother in laws school was named Newark Zen Bujutsukan and that was the way it was explained to me. But you know us Americans!

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by akja
I was told it was another name for a school like the Kai.

What I understood was that ryu meant style or system and kai meant organization.

 

[yilisifu]

My understanding is (and RyuShihkan will PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong), is that a "ryu" is a method or art that has been handed down through generations. A system that has been around for only one or two or even three generations cannot be called a "ryu."

I think that "kai" refers to a style and "kan" refers to a school (as in a building).

Ryushihkan? How far off am I?

 

[arnisador]

My understanding is that Isshin-ryu and Uechi-ryu were both created with just those names; the latter one could argue was a name change of an existing style, but not the former.

I wonder if the practice of waiting before calling something a 'ryu' has passed? I don't know.

I do think that kan refers to a place, e.g. Shoto-kan Shoto's place/house.

 

[kenmpoka]

As far as I know:
"Ryu" denotes system, school, or method.
"Kai" refers to a society as in a group.
"Kan" is house or place.
"Kyokai" is Association.
"Renmei" is Federation.
"Kaikan" is a place where a group gather. I guess also an association or a club.

:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

arnisador,

I believe you are correct in relation to Uechi-ryu. It did not become Uechi-ryu until 1947 after the death of Kanbun Uechi. Renamed by his son Kanie in his honor.

A system that has been around for only one or two or even three generations cannot be called a "ryu."

I don't know if there is a 'rule of thumb' in which to go by, but if this is the case then Uechi-ryu does not meet the requirement. They state in George Matteson's book of the same name that ryu simply means 'style of' according to the late Kanie Uechi.

:asian:

 

[Mike Clarke]

So there you are Grasshopper!
I've been wondering where you were? Away getting some more gradings no doubt?
Anyway, enough of this childish stuff or I'll have your students calling me names again.
You've changed the name of the things you teach a couple of times so I guess that makes you something of an expert?

If you want to be taken seriously by those on this forum who have been in the martial arts for more than a few years, then I suggest you come clean with your claims of high rank in one of the fighting systems you said you have trained in.

If you can't find it in you to do that, you have to expect more post like this one from those who see in you the very reason the martial arts are held in such low esteem by the general public world wide.

Before you carry on offering your pearls of wisdom, perhaps you could be mature enough to admit that at least some of the qualifications you stated you had some time ago, came from sources you are no longer happy to admit to?
Crap about not wanting to offend your past teachers by naming them is a smoke screen to hide what I suspect is some sense of embaressment by you?

As one Budo-ka and member of this forum, I'm asking' "Who did you recieve your 8th Dan grade from in Pangeinoon-ryu?"
You can write me on PM if you like.

I'll await your reply.
Mike.

 

[arnisador]

Please, keep the discussion polite and professional.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[A.R.K.]

"Who did you recieve your 8th Dan grade from in Pangeinoon-ryu?"

I don't have an 8th Dan in Pangeinoon-ryu. I do have an 8th Dan in Pangainoon. Many fine people on this forum know the names of the men that graded me. I have discussed them in great detail in the chatroom, in PM's and in emails. I have provided detailed information such as websites and even phone numbers. I chose not to do so to Robert and his buddies on principle. All of you feel that you have free reign on this site. You seem to feel that you can bully and intimidate by repeated slander, inuedo and unsubstantiated allegations. Now I suppose you feel you can go into another posters thread and divert the conversation once again to your agenda and smear campaign. I have nothing to prove to any of you. I need not answer to any of you.

Now it would seem that you want people to believe they need Asian permission to be recognized at a certain rank. Such as Robert's phone call to Okinawa. Pangainoon is indigenous to China not Okinawa. I have never claimed to have ties with Okinawa in regards to Pangainoon. Why would I? There is no requirement for me to be involved with any organization in Okinawa. There are branches of Pangainoon all over the world. America, Canada, Europe, Australia, Middle East etc. Why would we need Okinawan recognition for a Chinese system? For that matter why would we need China's recognition? Answer me these questions.

You few put so much stock in a piece of paper and a piece of cloth. The wall candy and the belt have absolutely no meaning in and of themselves. It is what we know and can teach and can use in real life that counts. 'Recognition' in the form of a belt or certificate is merely what someone else wishes to recognize in you and of you. As I have clearly detailed in several posts, rank ultimately comes from someone who had no rank. You cannot escape this. My rank and yours is ONLY what others have seen and tested in us. No more and no less. What matters is what you can teach others to do and what you personally can do in a real altercation. I don't believe anyone here has challenged me on my ability to teach or what I am capable of doing to another human being if forced. The issue is a piece of paper.

As I've indicated, men who are my betters ranked me according to what they felt I was worthy. As I've indicated, many here know who they are. They are strong martial artists with fine reputations. And as I've indicated, I will not cow down to 'demands' and a smear campain. Think of me as an 8th Dan or think of me as a white belt. Neither changes who I am or what I've done or what I could do. If you feel the need to follow me into every post and continue the flames....it is your time, do with it as you deem fit.

I will thank you all for one thing however, you have reminded me why I prefer the military/LEO community rather than the 'martial art' community. Bickering and in-fighting over who is what seems to me a waste of time. But again, spend your time as you see fit. I bid you peace and long life one and all.

:asian:

 

[Disco]

Well, the question I had asked in the other post (closed), has been answered to an extent. I original asked if ranking came from another Organization/Country would that change anything? Part of the question is that it apparently does come from someplace other than Okinawa. Now for the other part, does this change anything for anybody? I personally have a difficult time with the people who think that unless it comes from Okinawa, it's worthless. RyuShiKan himself has stated that he has incountered or at least knows of people from both Okinawa and Japan who are shall we say less than honorable or whose style(s) are subject to very close inspection or are totally bogus in comparrison to other disciplines. Again I reiterate, does this change anything for anybody?

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu

I will thank you all for one thing however, you have reminded me why I prefer the military/LEO community rather than the 'martial art' community. Bickering and in-fighting over who is what seems to me a waste of time. But again, spend your time as you see fit. I bid you peace and long life one and all.

:asian:

Is that cause the military community does not care what you have, and don't care to prove it?

 

[James Kovacich]

I find it quite funny that SOME people out care so much about the non-essentials. I did this, no you didn't, I know I'm right, damn and they wonder why "the martial arts are held in such low esteem by the general public world wide." Maybe they should look in the mirror.

I can say this about the two gentlemen that won't let it go. Sorry boys, but my Sensei is YOUR SENIOR in every respect and he sees me worthy of my 5th Dan.

Ummmm, one of you is a 4th Dan and the other is 6th Dan. Does that mean I can fight as good as you? NO! Does it mean that I deserve as much as respect as you? NO! But I am very much a real martial combatant with or without your respect.

It does mean that someone who knows me (and in my opinion, knows better than you) recognizes me, my martial art abilities and respects me enough back me up 100%.

And you Mr. 6th Dan your trying to police the police. Who made you the authority of a system you have nothing to do with?

MRJ, is a cop and I was on the otherside incarcerated for several years and I have more respect for him than I do for those who worry about the non-essentials. This caca sounds like kids play.

Don't even waste your time with me, I've fought the fight, the cage fight that dosen't let you go home, you have to wake up the next day and deal with what you did yesterday. Real fights, not the tippy tap that most think is practice.

NUMBER ONE, No one country has a monopoly on martial arts or rank.

NUMBER TWO, Once an art is taught, the student has NO OBLIGATION to teach as he was taught.

NUMBER THREE, Even if everybody followed the same standards, you TWO still would not be qualified to be the martial cops.

I've tried to be rational and I just don't give a mad F anymore, you don't deserve any respect except from your followers. Respect is earned and the dribble I've read in about three threads (that keeps getting locked, because of your dribble) does not command respect.

You can earn respect by acting right. I've put myself in check, time and time again, here and in my daily life. You need to check yourself. Its easy enough to ignore someone but you choose to keep digging a hole for yourself. Let it go.

I'm not *** kissin any of you. Don't like me? Then F U. Thats me.

If you want to be right, then lets be right together. We are all one. We we're born that way and we will leave this earth that way. If we can't live this way, then it will be someone else thats casts the first stone. And those who do will have to live with the respect that they've earned.

 

[James Kovacich]

This was written by a great warrior and his grandson. It could help some to take they're blinders off.

Professor Tarow Ty Hayashi,

Shihan-

October 24, 1927-November 5, 2001

“I shall know the depth of the principles of gentleness yet the cold tenacity of determination even in the face of death. I shall walk amongst my fellow men with purity of heart, a free conscience and a deep love of God and his creations. I shall have the strength of character that nothing shall disturb my peace of mind. I shall be to big for worry, to noble for anger, to strong for fear and to happy to permit the presence of trouble. I shall at all times face the world boldly and accept the challenges of this life.” (Ty Hayashi)

When our hour comes, as we walk through the valley of death, we shall fear no evil, for this moment, like all other moments of time in our life, will cease to be. Death is just another step in the staircase of life that we all have to climb, and it is not the end but only the beginning. It is the last physical battle a warrior must fight, and a true warrior humbly goes into goes into battle and it is his heritage to stand erect, proud and unafraid, where the victory is won as the heart stops, the eyes close and the last breath has left. Then we shall walk the staircase to heaven where the king rewards us, as true warriors in this fight, for peace, our gold medal of eternal life.

-Dennis Bare, grandson

 

[A.R.K.]

Is that cause the military community does not care what you have, and don't care to prove it?

I'm not sure this makes sense. The martial arts/LEO community focuses on what you can do, not what hangs on the wall [or in my case sits in a box in my closet]. It is mission/method oriented. Credentials are needed of course but in this arena credentials are regulated more stringently. For example, in order to teach Police D.T. I had to attend an FDLE instructors course and internship. What is taught, how it's taught and who is taught is regulated.

In the martial arts there are no regulated credentials so it is all subjective and relative. My Dan in Pangainoon is valid. I recieved it from those above me in accordance with system policy from several men of different cultural backgrounds. But some here would claim that since it was not from Okinawa it is not valid. I'm fine with that, because it simply doesn't change what I know and can do. A lot of my credentials come from the Middle East, which enjoys a fine tradition of fighting arts. As I've lived there and have family there I have many fine resourses available to me. If anyone doesn't feel that I can recieve any type of ranking from another country besides Okinawa, well again, I'm fine with that. It's not true and doesn't change a thing. But any and all are welcome to hold to that opinion.

So I hope that answers your question. Military/LEO is cut and dry, MA's are relative and subjective. Perhaps another point to be added, I can teach anywhere in the state because of my credentials. Some of my credentials allow me to teach in other countries. They are fixed so to speak. Not so with MA's many times because of politics & greed.

Thank you for allowing me to expound on this point, I appreciate it.

AKJA



:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

If someone alleges to hold a certain rank in a system that is headquartered in Okinawa or Japan or whatever, then that rank should be registered with same. If I say that I'm a 6th dan in Kyokushin, then the HQ of Kyokushin in Tokyo should have that grade registered.

On the other hand, if I allege that I'm ranked in a system that is not headquartered in the Orient, that's equally fine - but the HQ, wherever it is, should have it on record.

Not all system are headquartered in the Orient. That's fine.

But.....

Pangainoon-ryu IS headquartered in Okinawa. ALL ranks in that system should be registered with them.

It's that simple.

If this gentleman claims to be an 8th dan in Pangainoon, but their HQ has no record of it, then the claim is false. Perhaps his teacher was not truthful with him. Perhaps he is not being truthful with himself or with us. Whatever. If it is the former, then I suggest they stop calling what they teach "Pangainoon" and pick some other name. That one's taken.

I do think it's important that such questions be resolved. Unwillingness to resolve these kinds of issues has led to the general chaos we see in martial arts in the world today with literally hundreds and hundreds of homemade styles and people claiming to be extremely high-ranked practicioners of well-established systems.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by yilisifu
My understanding is (and RyuShihkan will PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong), is that a "ryu" is a method or art that has been handed down through generations. A system that has been around for only one or two or even three generations cannot be called a "ryu."

I think that "kai" refers to a style and "kan" refers to a school (as in a building).

Ryushihkan? How far off am I?

I have never heard it takes time to become a “Ryu”, so I can’t say.
Ryu simple means style.

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
"Who did you recieve your 8th Dan grade from in Pangeinoon-ryu?"

Mike,
That has become the Holy Grail or lost city of Atlantis.
It would seem only people that never questioned him are “privileged” enough to that information.
As for me, his non-answer tells me what I need to know, because anyone that didn’t have anything to hide would answer that question freely without suspicion.

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
I chose not to do so to Robert and his buddies on principle.

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Now it would seem that you want people to believe they need Asian permission to be recognized at a certain rank.

It’s only logical when they claim rank in an Asian art which has only one HQ and it’s located in Asia.

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Such as Robert's phone call to Okinawa. Pangainoon is indigenous to China not Okinawa. I have never claimed to have ties with Okinawa in regards to Pangainoon.

Funny, I had a conversation via email with Patrick McCarthy who is a noted martial historian and has made many trip to China as well as Okinawa and he didn’t seem to think Pangainoon was still around as an organization in China.

Care to expand on your Chinese Connections........I speak Chinese so I could just as easily verify your claim.
Just think how it would vindicate you and make you “legit” if I were to come here and say “Yup, I called the HQ in China and they said he is the real deal”

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Why would I? There is no requirement for me to be involved with any organization in Okinawa. There are branches of Pangainoon all over the world. America, Canada, Europe, Australia, Middle East etc. Why would we need Okinawan recognition for a Chinese system? For that matter why would we need China's recognition? Answer me these questions.

It should be noted that many of those organization were once Uechi Ryu Dojos that switched the name for various reasons.

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
You few put so much stock in a piece of paper and a piece of cloth.

You are the one that made the claim….and aren’t backing it up with any facts.

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Think of me as an 8th Dan or think of me as a white belt.

If I wrote the explicative that I think you are I would get the boot from this board for sure.

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
I will thank you all for one thing however, you have reminded me why I prefer the military/LEO community rather than the 'martial art' community. Bickering and in-fighting over who is what seems to me a waste of time.

Paaalease…..I teach martial arts on a Military base.
With the exception of a few guys most of the MA guys I run into on base don’t know crap. So it's odd that I, a non-military, non-Cop, have been asked to teach classes to CID, MPs, IG as well as some others.

Originally posted by Disco
Well, the question I had asked in the other post (closed), has been answered to an extent. I original asked if ranking came from another Organization/Country would that change anything? Part of the question is that it apparently does come from someplace other than Okinawa. Now for the other part, does this change anything for anybody? I personally have a difficult time with the people who think that unless it comes from Okinawa, it's worthless. RyuShiKan himself has stated that he has incountered or at least knows of people from both Okinawa and Japan who are shall we say less than honorable or whose style(s) are subject to very close inspection or are totally bogus in comparrison to other disciplines. Again I reiterate, does this change anything for anybody?

False or unsubstantiated claims to rank can’t be taken seriously no matter where they are supposedly from.
When people get rank from outside their own organization I have to ask “Why?” because it seems odd that they would need to.

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
I'm not sure this makes sense. The martial arts/LEO community focuses on what you can do, not what hangs on the wall [or in my case sits in a box in my closet].

Then it’s odd how you claim to be in law enforcement and also claim more titles than most, if not all, the members of this BBs.

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
In the martial arts there are no regulated credentials so it is all subjective and relative. My Dan in Pangainoon is valid. I recieved it from those above me in accordance with system policy from several men of different cultural backgrounds. But some here would claim that since it was not from Okinawa it is not valid.

As stated before.
If you are claiming rank in a style where the HQ is in a certain country and that same HQ has never heard of you, your credibility is greatly questioned.