How do you test techniques at your dojang?

OP
skribs

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
5,953
Reaction score
1,598
That would be my approach at higher ranks, but at early ranks, I wouldn’t expect them to be able to teach it. Personally, if someone is unsuited to a technique, I’ll test (and teach) something to fill the same spot, tactically and functionally. So, if a person is too tight for a specific kick, I’ll teach what I can of that, plus what they can substitute for it in practice, use, and testing.

Agree. We teach incremental skills/drills to help a person learn the mechanics of advanced techniques (jump spinning kicks in this case). They may never be able to perform the kick at a high level but they will understand the mechanics. Finding each persons individual best is the most satisfying end game.
Over time, this will allow them to see and explain the kick to another person.
I do think it is hard(er) for a lesser skilled person to teach advanced techniques. It is not always natural for them to 'draw' ability out of other, more naturally gifted people. The exception would be people who are very mentally driven.

That's why I said earlier that TKD has a set curriculum for each belt instead of a rotating curriculum. For example:
  • Our white and yellow belts learn front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, and axe kick. The first three kicks we expect to be around waist high (although we take into account the person's condition if they can't), and we expect them to be done slowly, weakly, and with mediocre form. Axe kicks we expect to be a stretching kick (not a true axe kick).
  • Purple and orange belts learn back kick, and learn basic footwork combined with the front kick, roundhouse kick, and side kick. At this point, we expect good form and mediocre speed and power from the basic kicks. Back kicks are usually slow, weak, and have bad form (we're more happy if they spin the right way and kick with the right foot). Axe kicks actually become downward kicks now.
  • Green belts start learning tornado kick, hook kick, and spin hook kick. We expect the tornado kick to be done step-by-step, the hook kick to be decent, and the spin hook kick is just atrocious. Basic kicks should be done with good speed and power, and at this point should have great form. We introduce more advanced footwork like skipping kicks, repeating kicks on the same leg, and double kicks.
  • Blue belts don't really have any new kicks, but we expect the tornado kick to be done well, and the spin hook kick to be done smoothly. Basic kicks are done in longer, more difficult combinations.
  • Red belts are expected to really perfect the functional kicks (black belts get more into the fancy show-off kicks). This is when we make the spin hook look good, for example.
So a beginner isn't going to have to worry about a spin hook kick, because we don't even teach it until green belt.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
27,891
Reaction score
9,060
Location
Hendersonville, NC
I do think it is hard(er) for a lesser skilled person to teach advanced techniques. It is not always natural for them to 'draw' ability out of other, more naturally gifted people. The exception would be people who are very mentally driven.
Unless you and I mean different things by "mentally driven", it has not been my experience that driven folks are actually better at drawing ability out of folks. They're more visible when they do because they naturally connect with others who are similarly driven, but they're as likely as any other personality style (perhaps more likely) to deliver the instruction in a way that other styles don't follow well.
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,260
Reaction score
641
Back to your post; in regards to the 'average Joe' who walks in with little to zero forethought, what do you see as average %'s for signup and retainage? Is there a 'wow' factor you use/have when someone comes in to talk about classes?
My suggestion to anyone interested in MA raining whether at my school or anyone else is to watch a few classes and then decide if this is what they want to do. Also ask about ALL fees involved. Not just the monthly tuition. No one should be swayed by some "Wow" factor with regard to what they are told.
Having said that my wow factor consists of several photos on the wall of events I trained at and who I trained with as opposed to certificates from whatever / wherever. This allows those who have some insight as to my educational experience with acknowledged leaders in their field.
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,260
Reaction score
641
I am not sure if you saw post #43. The post was a rather comprehensive response to the OP. IMHO, #9 is lower in order of importance for the average person (& kids) coming in. More so, it is a component part of the whole product.
Items listed in post 42/43 that the prospective / new student are interested in are in my "Student Handbook" This is given to any interested person before signup if they are interested and all new students. Since I have Park district programs, more often than not people sign up before I ever see them.
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
7,047
Reaction score
2,290
Location
Southeast U.S.
My suggestion to anyone interested in MA raining whether at my school or anyone else is to watch a few classes and then decide if this is what they want to do. Also ask about ALL fees involved. Not just the monthly tuition. No one should be swayed by some "Wow" factor with regard to what they are told.
Having said that my wow factor consists of several photos on the wall of events I trained at and who I trained with as opposed to certificates from whatever / wherever. This allows those who have some insight as to my educational experience with acknowledged leaders in their field.
Agree. I remember when I first opened our first dojang I was very involved in the Olympic circuit level of competition, and had a pretty big ego. I traded out classes to have a display built for trophies and medals that spanned the whole storefront windows and was 3 levels high. I thought it made some sense at the time; Martial Arts was riding a huge wave of popularity in the 80's. Trophies/medals were seen as a more "reliable" indicator of quality back then compared to now where everyone gets a participation trophy.
My competitive drive mellowed over the next few years and the display and it's 300 plus shiny things were converted into a visitor/parent seating area. I found there was much more satisfaction in developing relationships with our local LEO & EMS. We developed programs with DHS, our school systems, and several professional organizations. Over time I hung articles about things I have done within my community and such on my office walls that made Others feel good. This would usually resonate with potential new signups.
I held on to several of the medals from my highest accomplishments but I believe I trashed all the trophies. Great memories from the past but, in the end, memories are all the should be.
 
Last edited:

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,949
Reaction score
8,768
Location
Maui
My opinion is that even if someone can't do it themselves, I want to know that they can teach it to someone else if they were teaching class, or someone came to them for advice. They might not be able to do the jump spin kick at a practical level, but if they can demonstrate the component parts enough that someone can learn from them, then I'd want to see that.

There's actually a way to do that with jump spinning kicks.
 

oftheherd1

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
4,685
Reaction score
817
My primary art is Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. This is a Japanese based system of jujitsu. However, Okazaki (the founder of the art) chose to use different, non-traditional names. For most Japanese based systems, Kote Gaeshi looks something like this:

If you ask a DZR guy, if we study Kote Gaeshi, he will say yes. But when he demonstrates it, it will look something like this: (Kote Gaeshi is done twice, once by each person, starting at 46 seconds in)

Note, they are completely different things. This leads to a little confusion when training with other Japanese systems, for obvious reasons. I bring this up, as you seem to trying to come up with some kind of key word, coding system for the techniques. My suggestion would be to use the TKD Korean terms. That way your TKD students will be compatible with other schools.

At first, it may sound like a way to keep your students from drifting over to other schools. But, it also keep other TKD students from drifting over to your school. Further, when TKD Grand Master WhatsHisFace comes out to teach a seminar to your students, you have to spend half the time translating your terms into his terms.

Using the common TKD terms for the techniques would be a better approach in the long run. Then you can call out the Korean term and they perform it. You can add modifiers, "left side forward, step back, TKD term," "left side forward, slide step, TKD term."

Sorry, didn't look at your video before. Now that I have,I enjoyed them. Lots of moves I have learned in Hapkido. What I was particularly intrigued about was in the first video, just past 1:32 there was a slight use of the index finger of the hand as the hand is used to grasp the opponent's hand/wrist. If you look at the patch of the Korean Hapkido Association you will see there is a predominate use of the index finger. Also, just past that, there is a movement of the use of the index finger as if it were going to be used some other way but then it is used in the grasp. Is that something actually used in your art?

Also, once the opponent is on the ground, there is a grasp of the elbow. Is that a use of a pressure point there?
 

wab25

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 22, 2017
Messages
1,062
Reaction score
870
What I was particularly intrigued about was in the first video, just past 1:32 there was a slight use of the index finger of the hand as the hand is used to grasp the opponent's hand/wrist. If you look at the patch of the Korean Hapkido Association you will see there is a predominate use of the index finger. Also, just past that, there is a movement of the use of the index finger as if it were going to be used some other way but then it is used in the grasp. Is that something actually used in your art?
That demonstration is by "another" art, so I can't really comment on what they are doing. In Danzan Ryu, we teach it very differently, than demonstrated. In fact, I have a few problems with the way that was done... but then I was using it as an example of how most Japanese systems do the art of that name.

The biggest thing I would change, is that tori (the guy doing the art) wraps the fingers of both his hands around the wrist itself. When I grab, I stay off the wrist itself. By grabbing the wrist joint, you are supporting the wrist that you are trying to lock. If you grab just the hand, you give no support at all to the wrist, and the lock comes on a lot sooner and tighter.

The second thing I don't like is all the contact between the arms. He specifically says to use your elbow on uke's elbow. The issue here is that uke can then push against your elbow to relieve pressure on the wrist. I want to isolate the wrist and the lock it, giving him no support at all and nothing to use to relieve pressure.

The finger that we use, is actually the pinky finger of the hand that grabs around the thumb. You pull that finger in, the same way Japanese sword work, uses that pinky on the bottom to generate power. We would actually relax the index finger and use only the three lower fingers.

Also, once the opponent is on the ground, there is a grasp of the elbow. Is that a use of a pressure point there?
When I have done that turnover, (its not one of my better ones) the initial elbow grip, is done to bend the elbow and apply torque to the shoulder. As uke rolls over, it becomes a bar. And yes there is a pressure point in there as well. However, I always teach to get the mechanical advantage of the shoulder pressure to arm bar first and most important. That works "every time." The pressure point can get some pain compliance, but you must be accurate and different people have different amounts of reaction to it. So for me, the mechanical advantage part is the key, and the pressure point is there to make uke give me that smile ;)

I hope I answered your questions.
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
7,047
Reaction score
2,290
Location
Southeast U.S.
That demonstration is by "another" art, so I can't really comment on what they are doing. In Danzan Ryu, we teach it very differently, than demonstrated. In fact, I have a few problems with the way that was done... but then I was using it as an example of how most Japanese systems do the art of that name.

The biggest thing I would change, is that tori (the guy doing the art) wraps the fingers of both his hands around the wrist itself. When I grab, I stay off the wrist itself. By grabbing the wrist joint, you are supporting the wrist that you are trying to lock. If you grab just the hand, you give no support at all to the wrist, and the lock comes on a lot sooner and tighter.

The second thing I don't like is all the contact between the arms. He specifically says to use your elbow on uke's elbow. The issue here is that uke can then push against your elbow to relieve pressure on the wrist. I want to isolate the wrist and the lock it, giving him no support at all and nothing to use to relieve pressure.

The finger that we use, is actually the pinky finger of the hand that grabs around the thumb. You pull that finger in, the same way Japanese sword work, uses that pinky on the bottom to generate power. We would actually relax the index finger and use only the three lower fingers.

When I have done that turnover, (its not one of my better ones) the initial elbow grip, is done to bend the elbow and apply torque to the shoulder. As uke rolls over, it becomes a bar. And yes there is a pressure point in there as well. However, I always teach to get the mechanical advantage of the shoulder pressure to arm bar first and most important. That works "every time." The pressure point can get some pain compliance, but you must be accurate and different people have different amounts of reaction to it. So for me, the mechanical advantage part is the key, and the pressure point is there to make uke give me that smile ;)

I hope I answered your questions.

I had also wondered about the elbow grip. I think most of the 'compliance' is going to come from the wrist lock and the persons natural desire to alleviate pain will make straightening the elbow (in a prone position) easier.
I agree that the mechanics at that point are more important than the pressure point. Even if you simply open hand the outside of the elbow to help crank it over I feel the result would be the same. I would definitely do this if in meant keeping control of the hand.
 

wab25

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 22, 2017
Messages
1,062
Reaction score
870
I think most of the 'compliance' is going to come from the wrist lock and the persons natural desire to alleviate pain will make straightening the elbow (in a prone position) easier.
I think we are in agreement here, but just wanted to touch a few points. That turnover will work, purely by mechanical advantage. The bend in the elbow give tori a really good lever to effect the shoulder joint, causing the turn to start, which then changes into an arm bar. The wrist lock is great for pain compliance. If using the grip that we have in Danzan Ryu, breaking the wrist during the turnover or after is still an option. However, there is also another pressure point along the humorous that hand on the elbow can find. If you get the placement right, it can really light people up. This is the one I thought that oftheherd1 was asking about. Whats nice about this turnover, is that you end up with a wrist lock, arm bar and pressure point just above the elbow, all at the same time... it's great for everyone but uke.
 
OP
skribs

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
5,953
Reaction score
1,598
I think we are in agreement here, but just wanted to touch a few points. That turnover will work, purely by mechanical advantage. The bend in the elbow give tori a really good lever to effect the shoulder joint, causing the turn to start, which then changes into an arm bar. The wrist lock is great for pain compliance. If using the grip that we have in Danzan Ryu, breaking the wrist during the turnover or after is still an option. However, there is also another pressure point along the humorous that hand on the elbow can find. If you get the placement right, it can really light people up. This is the one I thought that oftheherd1 was asking about. Whats nice about this turnover, is that you end up with a wrist lock, arm bar and pressure point just above the elbow, all at the same time... it's great for everyone but uke.

There's a lot of other options as well.
  • Instead of turning the uke over, he could swing his left leg back and use his right shin as the fulcrum for an armbar that side.
  • If you feel him flexing against that first option, do a similar motion, but position your knee just past the elbow instead of just before it, and you have a really good shoulder lock
  • Sink the right leg down, put the left leg over the neck and go into the more well-known version of an armbar that you see in MMA
  • Wrap up the arm next to the head and twist the wrist outside, this is a really painful lock that doesn't take much effort once you've learned it
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
27,891
Reaction score
9,060
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Sorry, didn't look at your video before. Now that I have,I enjoyed them. Lots of moves I have learned in Hapkido. What I was particularly intrigued about was in the first video, just past 1:32 there was a slight use of the index finger of the hand as the hand is used to grasp the opponent's hand/wrist. If you look at the patch of the Korean Hapkido Association you will see there is a predominate use of the index finger. Also, just past that, there is a movement of the use of the index finger as if it were going to be used some other way but then it is used in the grasp. Is that something actually used in your art?

Also, once the opponent is on the ground, there is a grasp of the elbow. Is that a use of a pressure point there?
I'll toss in a thought on that index finger. We teach to use it less (really, to depend upon it less, by habit) to make sure the rest of the hand has room to grip. If you grab something and loosen with your index finger, you lose a small amount of grip (and some control/leverage). If you loosen with the pinky, it also loosens the next finger, and your grip becomes significantly weaker. So, to ensure we always get that side of the grip in, we train to leave room by applying the index last (if there's room). In many cases, we teach to simply exclude it from the grip, when it's likely to be a problem.
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
7,047
Reaction score
2,290
Location
Southeast U.S.
I'll toss in a thought on that index finger. We teach to use it less (really, to depend upon it less, by habit) to make sure the rest of the hand has room to grip. If you grab something and loosen with your index finger, you lose a small amount of grip (and some control/leverage). If you loosen with the pinky, it also loosens the next finger, and your grip becomes significantly weaker. So, to ensure we always get that side of the grip in, we train to leave room by applying the index last (if there's room). In many cases, we teach to simply exclude it from the grip, when it's likely to be a problem.
I am glad you mentioned the index finger. We do not use it much in grip either. If it becomes a must for grip strength/control we work on 'folding' the hand slightly to use the blade or even the heel of the hand for leverage. Something I knew but learned much better in Kali.
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
7,047
Reaction score
2,290
Location
Southeast U.S.
Gerry, can you expound on this? I am wondering if we are on the same page and would love to hear more about the ideology.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
9,994
Reaction score
3,950
Location
New York
Gerry, can you expound on this? I am wondering if we are on the same page and would love to hear more about the ideology.
What are you looking for him to expound on here? i feel like you explained it perfectly-the pinky is the most important followed by each finger leading to the index.

Obviously not Gerry, but the only exception I can think of for this is situations where you are only gripping with your index and thumb.
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
7,047
Reaction score
2,290
Location
Southeast U.S.
What are you looking for him to expound on here? i feel like you explained it perfectly-the pinky is the most important followed by each finger leading to the index.

Obviously not Gerry, but the only exception I can think of for this is situations where you are only gripping with your index and thumb.
Nothing in particular. Just ideas and confirmation of the concept which, like you said, he covered pretty well.
I was wondering if anyone else works on using the blade or heel of the hand or is this a derivative of a weapon holding concept.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
27,891
Reaction score
9,060
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Nothing in particular. Just ideas and confirmation of the concept which, like you said, he covered pretty well.
I was wondering if anyone else works on using the blade or heel of the hand or is this a derivative of a weapon holding concept.
I was trying to work out what you mean by that. Can you describe more?

As for the index finger, it's mostly pretty straightforward in the way I approach it. There is also some circular pressure in several techniques that pulls in with the pinky edge of the hand, pushing down with the thumb side.
 

wab25

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 22, 2017
Messages
1,062
Reaction score
870
I found a video that shows our hand position pretty well. He is demonstrating "our katate tori" in combination. But you can see how he grips uke's hand, leaving the wrist clear. (10 seconds to 11 seconds) You can also see how he is pulling with the pinky and pushing with the thumb. (23-25 seconds)

Instead of turning the uke over, he could swing his left leg back and use his right shin as the fulcrum for an armbar that side.
Is this what you mean, at the end of the combination starting at 2:23? (they are putting in a lot of extra, looks cool stuff, as this is a "kata contest." some of it is over the top fluff...)
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
7,047
Reaction score
2,290
Location
Southeast U.S.
I was trying to work out what you mean by that. Can you describe more?

As for the index finger, it's mostly pretty straightforward in the way I approach it. There is also some circular pressure in several techniques that pulls in with the pinky edge of the hand, pushing down with the thumb side.
It is part of our natural grip that you touched on I feel. By using the outer three finger (pinky, ring, bird) we have a stronger grip naturally. That is how we learned to grip a blade or baton in Kali.
I think we are saying the same thing when you say pinky edge and I say blade of the hand.
 

Latest Discussions

Top